Protestantism

» pink101 - Treason & War

In response to Skinned Alive posted by BrianTubbs:
.
I don't think there can be any comparison between the two types of crime. One is war and the other is treasonous. Treason is a particularly worse than heinous crime
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Brian Tubbs - Treason & War

In response to Treason & War posted by pink101:

What about Timothy McVeigh blowing up the Murrah building in Oklahoma City? You would agree that's both treason AND mass murder...yes?

As for the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on 9/11/01, that was terrorism...pure and simple. A surprise attack launched by vicious extremist terrorists against innocent and unsuspecting people. There was no justification for it, and we should continue to pursue those responsible for it - and bring them to justice!

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - Sad To Say

In response to Treason & War posted by BrianTubbs:
.
You certainly are operating from the most popular point of view.
.
If I disagree with you, I am tossed in the basket with all sorts of unpatriotic malcontents that just can't get the truth straightened out in their minds.
.
The way I see things, the World Trade Center had a symbolic value to those people who saw themselves as being victimized by the multinationals. They saw a connection between America's military/industrial complex and their troubles in their homelands. To them it was as though, if it were you, the communist empire had teamed up with some military force to over throw your world. So, they surely believed that they had more than enough cause to attack the WTC and the Pentagon.
.
The American people were put in a place where we had to either agree with them that they were being mistreated or in which we could retaliate against them. We were between a rock and a hard place. Naturally we had to retaliate--we had no choice at that level.
.
Once again, we have to consider if we both aren't victims in our own way.
.
I don't know about Timothy McVeigh. I guess he acted from his understanding of truth in a terrible way. We have to be careful of the choices we make as the wrong one can take us down a long dark alley that ends with tragic consequences.
.
Life is far too complex for you and me to make choices based on the knowledge we are allowed to inspect at our levels.
.
We are just plain stupid if we don't know that things are going on back stage. I'm not privy to that and neither are you.
.
But, I can tell you that there is more than a slight smell coming through the curtains to let us know that there is something very rotten going on back there. And, I absolutely do not believe our leadership. I think they think we are expendable as pawns in their game to rule the world. The best way to describe them is with all the worst four letter words you can think of.
.
Sad to say.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Brian Tubbs - Sad To Say

In response to Sad To Say posted by pink101:

The way I see things, the World Trade Center had a symbolic value to those people who saw themselves as being victimized by the multinationals. They saw a connection between America's military/industrial complex and their troubles in their homelands. To them it was as though, if it were you, the communist empire had teamed up with some military force to over throw your world. So, they surely believed that they had more than enough cause to attack the WTC and the Pentagon.

We know from the writings and the recordings of the Islamic fundamentalists that there's much more to their motivations than opposition to multinational corporations. But even if that were all there was to it...

Do you believe it was a justifiable act on their part? I'm not asking you if THEY thought it was justifiable. It's obvious that they did - just as the assasins of JFK, MLK, and RFK thought what they did was justified. I'm asking YOU...

Was 9/11/01 justified?

The American people were put in a place where we had to either agree with them that they were being mistreated or in which we could retaliate against them. We were between a rock and a hard place. Naturally we had to retaliate--we had no choice at that level.

Retaliate AND take steps to protect ourselves from future attacks.

I don't know about Timothy McVeigh. I guess he acted from his understanding of truth in a terrible way. We have to be careful of the choices we make as the wrong one can take us down a long dark alley that ends with tragic consequences.

Wow....you're pretty tolerant of Mr. McVeigh, even though hundreds of people (including innocent children) died as a result of what he did. And yet you want to "skin alive" those responsible for killing THREE men.

Let me get this straight...we need to understand McVeigh (who killed hundreds, including CHILDREN!) but we need to torture those who murdered THREE men. Am I getting this right?
.
Life is far too complex for you and me to make choices based on the knowledge we are allowed to inspect at our levels.

Are you willing to grant this benefit of the doubt - this tolerant gesture toward those in the 'dark' - when it comes to the murderers of RFK, JFK, and MLK?

We are just plain stupid if we don't know that things are going on back stage. I'm not privy to that and neither are you.

Of course, things are going on back stage - as they have always have been. No individual has EVER been privy to EVERYTHING going on.

But, I can tell you that there is more than a slight smell coming through the curtains to let us know that there is something very rotten going on back there. And, I absolutely do not believe our leadership. I think they think we are expendable as pawns in their game to rule the world. The best way to describe them is with all the worst four letter words you can think of.

Did it ever occur to you that the murderers of MLK, JFK, and RFK felt the way toward THEM that you do toward our "current leadership"? Now, I know you're not contemplating assassination, but you HAVE - in other posts - warned of riots in the streets, revolution, a "day of reckoning," etc., etc., etc. So, you're operating on the same feelings - just from a different vantage point.

Sad to say.

Indeed

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - Ayn Randian

In response to Sad To Say posted by BrianTubbs:
.
Looks like I've made some contact with your central being. Heh heh heh.
.
You wrote, Do you believe [9-11] was a justifiable act on [the attackers'] part?
.
I do not believe that war is justifiable and, so, I do not believe their act of war was justified. Although, I can see their thinking which I believe was twisted--it took them down a long dark alley that ended in tragedy.
.
What they did was far different than what the people did who murdered JFK, MLK, and RFK.
.
Our retaliation was carried out by our leaders--we had no choice in the matter.
.
I'm not in the least bit tolerant of McVeigh. He made a choice that took him down a long dark alley that ended in tragedy. I think what he did was horrendous.
.
And, you write, . And yet you want to "skin alive" those responsible for killing THREE men.
.
You have completely missed my point. That they "murdered THREE men" was totally incidental to their treasonous action which was to truncate a movement in America--they stole our sovereignty. That crime ranks with the most vile of all possibilities.
.
And, you wrote, Am I getting this right?
.
No, you aren't. You have spun my words out of their context to mean things beyond my thoughts.
.
The attack on the WTC was one of the horrors of this century. There are injustices and horrors going on all around us even as we make these posts.
.
Patriotism is not defined by one's nationalist actions and beliefs. It is as much the ability to point to the errors of one's country's own ways as it is to show one's love for one's country. America is not the pure and perfectly innocent society you seem to portray. A lot of mistakes and a lot of harm in the world are made and done in the name of the United States of America. Yet, it is our country and we must protect it against assaults. Better, we should have more open dialog.
.
The great efforts of George W. Bush administration have been toward a nationalist ideology based on some Ayn Randian approach toward life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
.
He is leading America down a long dark alley that will end with tragedy. We need a major change in our national direction.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Brian Tubbs - USA

In response to Ayn Randian posted by pink101:

I never said nor intended to imply that the United States was a perfect country. In fact, I've said the opposite on several occasions. But I'm still going to stand beside my country and with my country. And when it comes to pointing out errors and mistakes, I do so from WITHIN my country - and in the spirit of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - USA

In response to USA posted by BrianTubbs:
.
I never said nor intended to imply that the United States was a perfect country.
.
But, your position certainly seems to be that there was no reason for the 911 attack to have been made.
.
So, ask yourself the question, "Why would anyone want Americans to believe that there was no provocation for the attack?"
.
"Who, me! Poor little innocent unbridled multinational capitalist me? Aw, gee, we were just being good Americans spreading our Christian influence around so that the tribal peoples of the world could enjoy the fruits of our labor."
.
And, that seems to be the attitude most conservatives have copped regarding the trouble with radical Muslims.
.
It is easy to see why they are upset if we will only open our eyes.
.
The problem is very much involved with the Israeli/Palestinian situation that our government has helped create along with the heavy influence we give in support of the multinationals.
.
Intransigence only fuels the anger to turn it into a raging radicalism. Our government's foreign policies are not well understood by We the People of the United States. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.and no amount of nationalist fervor can pass off as patriotism nor make greedy aggression to be a mission of spreading democracy around the world. And, using nationalism to shut down discussion isn't going to work in the long run.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Brian Tubbs - Not Justified

In response to USA posted by pink101:

Pink, I never said that the Islamic extremist terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center and Pentagon did so without any reason. I know they had reasons. Terrorists almost always have motivations and reasons. That's a no-brainer.

What I said was that their reasons for attacking were not (and ARE not) justified. And I stand by that.

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» pink101 - Not Justified

In response to Not Justified posted by BrianTubbs:
.
Brian's response, "...[the 911 terrorists'] reasons for attacking were not (and ARE not) justified. And I stand by that."
.
By whose standards? Obviously, they believed they were justified. We should take them seriously and consider what they thought made them think they were whether we thought so or not. To take their arguments into consideration does not make them righteous.
.
Your position is the exemplification of intransigence.
.

-- posted by pink101

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds

» Migisi - Dead men don't talk

.
Dead men don't talk. We'll never really know why they did what they did - or who else was behind 9-11.
.
BTW... where is Osama? Haven't heard his name mentioned in months. Interesting that we could find Sadam and his bros and buds and execute them (who had no part in 9-11), but we still haven't found Osama -- who openly condoned 3000 murders.
.
McVeigh - a Bronze Star Army veteran of the Gulf War - killed 168 people in OK in revenge for the murders of innocent people at Ruby Ridge and Waco by Janet Reno's gestapos. McVeigh was at Waco during the entire seige, and observed first-hand what went down.
.
During the Gulf War, McVeigh was ordered to execute surrendering prisoners. He was horrified by this, and by the human carnage he'd seen. He was ashamed of what his government had done, and developed his anti-government thinking from there. Waco and Ruby Ridge put him over the edge.
.
McVeigh definitely deserved to die for what he did, IMO. Janet Reno deserved far more than a Senate and Justice Dept. tongue-lashing for Waco and Ruby Ridge. She, IMO, was ultimately responsible for the murder of Vicki and Sam Weaver at Ruby, and 76 people (including 21 kids and 2 pregnant women) at Waco.

-- posted by Migisi

Permalink Print Discussion Email Discussion How to subscribe to feeds