Protestantism

» Migisi - "Words" and "Things"

In response to "Words" and "Things" posted by pink101:
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But, according to what I have learned about feminism from its leading experts, that is not the case. Feminism does NOT reach out for equal rights so much as it claims society is based on wrong headed thinking and that personal experience shows us that the way "things" are is highly questionable if not absolutely wrong..
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The 'second wave' feminists were/are all about equality and an end to discrimination of every stripe. A pretty simple philosophy with goals clearly defined. Today, we'd be labeled "equity" feminists.
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The 'third wave' feminists (and their 'leading experts') have developed several social philosophies which are far too complicated (egg-headish) for the average person to comprehend - especially for third-worlders. And IMO, their goals (if they have any) are splintered or not well defined. I think the philosophy you refer to (including the term 'bifurcation') describes third-wavers.
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Feminism goes on to explain that the very "words" we use to transmit messages to each other are loaded in such a way so that they favor the idea that truth is located in the past.
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What 'loaded' words do the third-wavers find objectional to their feminist philosophy?
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That is probably why Brian made his statements about language earlier in this thread.
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Lot of folks oppose supplemental menus displayed in Spanish at McDonalds and Burger King too. They'll get over it.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - "Words" and "Things"

In response to "Words" and "Things" posted by Migisi:

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????
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Can you give some references?
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I'd like to understand more about what you've posted.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - In Particular

In response to "Words" and "Things" posted by pink101:

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In particular, I'm interested in the "waves".

-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - In Particular

In response to In Particular posted by pink101:
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In modern western history:
First wave: early 19th century - the Suffragette movement; leaders like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, marxists Frederick Engels & August Bebel.
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Second wave: early 1960s through the mid 1980s (and continuing in the current senior sector); leaders like Betty Freidan and Gloria Steinam.
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Third wave: early 1990s to today; leaders like Gloria Anzaldua, Gloria Jean Watkins (Bell Hooks). And I'm sure you've read works by others.
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Re: 'words' or language, feminist jargon is like learning a different language. One doesn't become fluent unless it's used frequently. Personally, I don't see the need to speak in gender-neutral terms, but some more radical feminist feel excluded by terms like "mankind" and similar. I too get harped on for not using PC language. Eh, so what.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Very Complex

In response to In Particular posted by Migisi:
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That's for the response. It was helpful.
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For what it's worth to anyone, thanks for having any input in this thread.
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I have learned most of what I know about feminism, here, since this thread was started.
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I have to conclude, for myself, that I don't get feminism as a single strain of thinking; but, it seems to be a complicated movement that stands in opposition to much of what has been taught to us about reality.
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I can see how religion wants to reject it; but, at the same time, much of what feminism holds forth comes out of religion. So, the bifurcation expresses itself again. And, the bifurcation does seem to be at the foundation of feminism no matter what discipline it is found. Feminism seems to expose the lies we've been taught to believe. It shows us many contradictions we don't, otherwise, see so easily.
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I see feminist thinking having much to do in the dialog in which our society is engaged. More than we know. I think it is being played out in our present political scene.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Very Complex

In response to Very Complex posted by pink101:
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that I don't get feminism as a single strain of thinking
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I agree. Western feminism is far more complicated nowadays. It used to be a 'grass roots' social movement. It's now become a PC talking point for the intelligenza, sociology academics, and book sellers - which, IMO, is why the movement has lost momentum and change has stalled out. It doesn't reach out to the waitress and store clerk anymore. As I see it, anyway.
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I can see how religion wants to reject it; but, at the same time, much of what feminism holds forth comes out of religion.
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If that religion dictates a lower or nonexistent social and economic status for women, equity feminism opposes that. Naturally, orthodox religion opposes feminism because it demands change in age-old established patriarchal doctrine. I can't see how either can co-exist.
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More than we know. I think it is being played out in our present political scene.
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An interesting article here. It reflects what I said about not reaching out to the average woman and her everyday issues:
Snippet from:
Why Women Hate Hillary April 2007
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3129/
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"Hillary, by contrast, seems to want to be more like a man in her demeanor and politics, makes few concessions to the social demands of femininity, and yet seems to be only a partial feminist. She seems above us, exempting herself from compromises women have to make every day, while, at the same time, leaving some of the basic tenets of feminism in the dust. We are sold out on both counts. In other words, she seems like patriarchy in sheep's clothing.
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"Clearly, Hillary and her advisors have calculated that for a woman to be elected in this country, she's got to come across as just as tough as the guys. And maybe they're right. But so far, Hillary is not getting men with this strategy, and women feel written off. After the dark ages of this pugnacious administration, many of us want to let the light in. We want a break with the past, optimism, and a recommitment to the government caring about and serving the needs of everyday people. We want what feminism began to fight for 40 years ago-humanizing deeply patriarchal institutions. And, ironically, we see candidates like John Edwards or Barack Obama-men-offering just that. If Hillary Clinton wants to be the first female president, then maybe, just maybe, she should actually run as a woman." (end)
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Hmm... maybe Hillary read this article - and that's why we saw her cry for the cameras in January in NH??? To appear more human, softer, womanly? I didn't buy it. Did you?

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Woman From Massachusetts

Three men were sitting together bragging about how they had given their
new wives duties.
The first man had married a Woman from Colorado and had told her that
she was going to do dishes and house cleaning. It took a couple days, but
on the third day he came home to a clean house and dishes washed and put
away.
The second man had married a woman from Nebraska . He had given his
wife orders that she was to do all the cleaning, dishes, and the cooking.
The first day he didn't see any results, but the next day he saw it
was better. By the third day, he saw his house was clean, the dishes
were done, and there was a huge dinner on the table.
The third man had married a woman from Massachusetts . He told her that
her duties were to keep the house cleaned, dishes washed, lawn mowed,
laundry washed and hot meals on the table for every meal. He said the first day he didn't see anything, the second day he didn't see anything, but by the
third day some of the swelling had gone down and he could see a little
out of his left eye, enough to fix himself a bite to eat and load the
dishwasher.
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Hillary
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As far as Hillary goes, she is all for the old style politics that came out of the South. Have you seen the movie, Pelican Road? I think that was the name of it. It played around 1949. Back room politics ala the Clintons.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Should it evolve?

In response to Managerial posted by Migisi:

I don't believe religion should evolve according to circumstances, culture, or human feelings - though I concede that people's beliefs do indeed evolve. What religions SHOULD do is strive to discern God's revelation, which is transcendent and absolute.

» Migisi - Woman From Illinois

In response to Woman From Massachusetts posted by pink101:
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"The third man had married a woman from Massachusetts ."
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His wife was actually born and raised in the Prairie State. We grow em tough here in Illinois. There's mettle in the water.
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As far as Hillary goes, she is all for the old style politics that came out of the South.
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I don't see that in her. If she was old-style southern politics, she'd have never even considered running for any office herself. Politics would be too "manly" for a woman. She'd have been content to remain in her successful husband's shadow, and happy running church picnics and bake sales. Nah, she's a tough-as-nails woman in her own right -- probably a woman I'd have as a personal friend. But as President, I dunno.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Should it evolve?

In response to Should it evolve? posted by BrianTubbs:

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I don't believe religion should evolve according to circumstances, culture, or human feelings...
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The Pope doesn't believe religion should evolve either. Hence, the empty church pews.

-- posted by Migisi