Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Feminism, Christianity & Liberalism

In response to Feminism, Christianity & Liberalism posted by pink101:
Define "feminism" and "liberalism" - different people mean different things by those terms.

» pink101 - Feminism, Christianity & Liberalism

In response to Feminism, Christianity & Liberalism posted by BrianTubbs:
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Define "feminism" and "liberalism"
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Stick around, we can unravel it so everyone gets a pretty good idea of what it is.
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"... different people mean different things by those terms."
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That's what postmodernism is all about, isn't it? Different strokes for different folks.
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I think we have enough information on liberalism to posit a fairly good idea on what it means. Pretty much, it is an unfettered way to look at new ideas without the knee jerk reaction expressed by conservatism. I think it is safe to say that Liberals are not afraid to test out new ideas; whereas, Conservatives are generally afraid of anything new and untried. For example, Liberals opened the gates that eventually freed the slaves. Conservatives sought to prove slavery was a societal virtue with biblical authority.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Conservatism

In response to Feminism, Christianity & Liberalism posted by pink101:

You have a very loaded, extremely biased, and completely unfair definition of "conservatism."

I'm honestly not interested in being dragged into a debate if my perspective (which IS conservative - compared with you and Migisi) is going to be caricatured from the outset. I don't mean that to sound argumentative. It's more a time management issue for me. If I responded to every attack on conservative values and principles, on Bush, on Christianity, etc. that's offered in these threads, it would be a full-time job. I just don't have that kind of time.

So...to put it bluntly, I reject your definition of conservatism. I particularly and PASSIONATELY reject your trying to tie conservative Christianity in with slavery. When it comes to theological matters, I am definitely conservative - and I deplore racism (and have written against it, counseled against it, and preached against it!).

» pink101 - Conservatism

In response to Conservatism posted by BrianTubbs:
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So...to put it bluntly, I reject your definition of conservatism. I particularly and PASSIONATELY reject your trying to tie conservative Christianity in with slavery. When it comes to theological matters, I am definitely conservative - and I deplore racism (and have written against it, counseled against it, and preached against it!).
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Certainly you do. It's hard to imagine anyone wouldn't be against racism as it was practiced by people in the South who wanted--so desperately--to conserve their traditions which were defended by biblical references. That good old Son of Dixie, Lester Maddox, gave people in my generation a good healthy dose of the kind of racism Southerners practiced in the mid twentieth century. It took the federal government to quell what otherwise would have been in control of American society today.
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But, Northern Liberals broke the back of that overt racism--thankfully.
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I don't think I defined Conservatism--only gave an example of how it works in society.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Debate?

In response to Conservatism posted by BrianTubbs:
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Brian's response to my statement about Liberalism zeros in on a basic complaint made by Feminists the world over.
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It is difficult enough for a woman to grasp the basics of Feminism let alone a man.
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And, that is the first complaint made by Feminists--that it is so difficult for anyone to grasp.
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I think it is important to open this line of thinking in a careful way.
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Women are born into a world in which their experiences do not line up with the perspectives they are given. If you agree or disagree with this statement points up something about Conservatism and Liberalism. The Liberal will have an open mind to learn why the statement is made. The Conservative will complain exactly the way Brian has in his response, I'm honestly not interested in being dragged into a debate if my perspective (which IS conservative - compared with you and Migisi) is going to be caricatured from the outset..
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In other words, there is an outright opposition to Feminism before it is even understood as a theory. That looks like reactionary Conservatism.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Sexism and Religion

In response to Conservatism posted by BrianTubbs:
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.... and I deplore racism....
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How about sexism?
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Quoting from:
SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION SAYS NO TO FEMALE PASTORS
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/southernba...
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"June 15, 2000 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) -- The Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida, approved a change in its Baptist Faith and Message statement to strengthen its formal position against female pastors.
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"Old statement: "Southern Baptists, by practice as well as conviction, believe leadership is male."
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"New Statement: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture."

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Bifurcation

In response to Sexism and Religion posted by Migisi:

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Time to interject the idea of bifurcation which speaks to the split between the cultural view of reality and each woman's experience of her own reality.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Definitions and Labels

When we talk of "conservatism," are we talking in the theological sense or political sense? Are we talking just within Christianity or are we including other faiths as well?

Since this is a Protestantism site, I will address it from within a PROTESTANT Christian perspective. A "conservative" in THAT perspective is one who holds to the fundamental tenets of biblical Christianity.

A conservative therefore is one who holds to biblical authority and does not believe it is for individuals, churches, traditions, etc. to remake or refashion Scripture to suit public opinion, changing cultural mores, etc.

Pink very offensively and VERY inaccurately claims that biblical Christian conservatism is what defended and justified racism. I grant that many in the South (during the Civil War and segregation eras) TRIED to make those arguments, but they did so with very, very, very bad biblical exegesis.

The Bible does not defend racism. On the contrary, the Bible makes clear that all human beings are created in God's image and that God "is no respector of persons." It was the southern racists who tried to redefine and refashion the Bible.

I don't expect Pink to see that, though, since he obviously has an axe to grind against conservatives.

Migisi brings up the issue of women and sexism. To the extent that sexism means the devaluing of women, I deplore it. And I have said so from the pulpit. (I've also said from the pulpit in my very conservative Baptist church that I see nothing wrong with a woman President, btw).

But this discussion thread all comes down to labels and definitions. And since I don't think the three of us are going to be able to agree on those, I don't see this being a balanced, fair, or objective discussion.

» pink101 - Definitions and Labels

In response to Definitions and Labels posted by BrianTubbs:
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Are we talking just within Christianity or are we including other faiths as well?
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All religions.
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A conservative [Christian] therefore is one who holds to biblical authority and does not believe it is for individuals, churches, traditions, etc. to remake or refashion Scripture to suit public opinion, changing cultural mores, etc.
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I agree.
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Pink very offensively and VERY inaccurately claims that biblical Christian conservatism is what defended and justified racism.
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On the contrary. My claim is that Southern conservatives claimed biblical authority to be in support of slavery. And, further, after their defeat at the hands of the United States of America, they continued to hold on to their beliefs claiming that their defeat was an example of God's chastisement for not being conservative enough in their adherence to God's authority over their life. One thing you have to hand the Southerners is their devoutness.
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It was the southern racists who tried to redefine and refashion the Bible.
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I agree. And, they were racists almost to the last one among them.
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To the extent that sexism means the devaluing of women, I deplore it. And I have said so from the pulpit.
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I'm sure you have. And, that is one of the main points of Feminism.
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But this discussion thread all comes down to labels and definitions. And since I don't think the three of us are going to be able to agree on those, I don't see this being a balanced, fair, or objective discussion.
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It isn't my intention that this thread be all about labels and definitions. It doesn't even have to be about anything that any participants might find agreeable. Instead, it is about unraveling the ideas of Feminism and how it impinges on such things as religion and vice versa.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - All religions?

In response to Definitions and Labels posted by pink101:

Pink says this discussion should incorporate all religions. I'm afraid I'm not qualified to proceed along those lines. I have studied many of the world's religions, but not all of them. And I've only studied the Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) significantly. And of those Three, I've spent most of my time obviously in Christianity. So....I don't think I can speak to all the faiths of the world. I'll have to limit my comments primarily to Christianity. And within that, primarily to Protestantism.