Protestantism

» pink101 - Bifurcation

In response to Sexism and Religion posted by Migisi:

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Time to interject the idea of bifurcation which speaks to the split between the cultural view of reality and each woman's experience of her own reality.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Definitions and Labels

When we talk of "conservatism," are we talking in the theological sense or political sense? Are we talking just within Christianity or are we including other faiths as well?

Since this is a Protestantism site, I will address it from within a PROTESTANT Christian perspective. A "conservative" in THAT perspective is one who holds to the fundamental tenets of biblical Christianity.

A conservative therefore is one who holds to biblical authority and does not believe it is for individuals, churches, traditions, etc. to remake or refashion Scripture to suit public opinion, changing cultural mores, etc.

Pink very offensively and VERY inaccurately claims that biblical Christian conservatism is what defended and justified racism. I grant that many in the South (during the Civil War and segregation eras) TRIED to make those arguments, but they did so with very, very, very bad biblical exegesis.

The Bible does not defend racism. On the contrary, the Bible makes clear that all human beings are created in God's image and that God "is no respector of persons." It was the southern racists who tried to redefine and refashion the Bible.

I don't expect Pink to see that, though, since he obviously has an axe to grind against conservatives.

Migisi brings up the issue of women and sexism. To the extent that sexism means the devaluing of women, I deplore it. And I have said so from the pulpit. (I've also said from the pulpit in my very conservative Baptist church that I see nothing wrong with a woman President, btw).

But this discussion thread all comes down to labels and definitions. And since I don't think the three of us are going to be able to agree on those, I don't see this being a balanced, fair, or objective discussion.

» pink101 - Definitions and Labels

In response to Definitions and Labels posted by BrianTubbs:
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Are we talking just within Christianity or are we including other faiths as well?
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All religions.
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A conservative [Christian] therefore is one who holds to biblical authority and does not believe it is for individuals, churches, traditions, etc. to remake or refashion Scripture to suit public opinion, changing cultural mores, etc.
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I agree.
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Pink very offensively and VERY inaccurately claims that biblical Christian conservatism is what defended and justified racism.
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On the contrary. My claim is that Southern conservatives claimed biblical authority to be in support of slavery. And, further, after their defeat at the hands of the United States of America, they continued to hold on to their beliefs claiming that their defeat was an example of God's chastisement for not being conservative enough in their adherence to God's authority over their life. One thing you have to hand the Southerners is their devoutness.
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It was the southern racists who tried to redefine and refashion the Bible.
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I agree. And, they were racists almost to the last one among them.
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To the extent that sexism means the devaluing of women, I deplore it. And I have said so from the pulpit.
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I'm sure you have. And, that is one of the main points of Feminism.
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But this discussion thread all comes down to labels and definitions. And since I don't think the three of us are going to be able to agree on those, I don't see this being a balanced, fair, or objective discussion.
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It isn't my intention that this thread be all about labels and definitions. It doesn't even have to be about anything that any participants might find agreeable. Instead, it is about unraveling the ideas of Feminism and how it impinges on such things as religion and vice versa.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - All religions?

In response to Definitions and Labels posted by pink101:

Pink says this discussion should incorporate all religions. I'm afraid I'm not qualified to proceed along those lines. I have studied many of the world's religions, but not all of them. And I've only studied the Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) significantly. And of those Three, I've spent most of my time obviously in Christianity. So....I don't think I can speak to all the faiths of the world. I'll have to limit my comments primarily to Christianity. And within that, primarily to Protestantism.

» pink101 - All religions?

In response to All religions? posted by BrianTubbs:

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You keep trying to change the direction this thread wants to go.
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It is not a thread about religion; but, one about Feminism.
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You seem highly qualified to provide us with facts about those three and especially Protestant Christianity and that's great.
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Maybe we can stay on track now.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Staying on track...

In response to All religions? posted by pink101:

We still haven't agreed on a definition of conservatism, nor have we agreed on a focus with respect to what religions we wish to analyze. Since this is a Protestantism site, I think it best that we stick to that, but you seem to want to broaden it out further. And...

We have not defined feminism - or, for that matter, sexism (which I assume is being presented as the opposite of feminism?).

When it comes to a sensitive and controversial topic like this, agreement on the terms is imperative. We don't have that yet.

» pink101 - Staying on track...

In response to Staying on track... posted by BrianTubbs:
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When it comes to a sensitive and controversial topic like this, agreement on the terms is imperative. We don't have that yet.
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I think we have to go slowly here as the very definition of Feminism is in the works.
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If you and I were to agree on certain terms, we would be proving a major complaint of Feminism.
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This is why I say we have to put on a liberal mind set here in order to allow our thinking to open up to possibilities outside the established view of reality.
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I think the definition of Conservatism has been made clear in that it is holding on to an established view of reality.
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This is not a subject for argumentation. Instead, we're wanting to understand something we haven't known
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Feminism provides a view of reality outside the traditional grasp.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Staying on track...

In response to Staying on track... posted by pink101:

Well, understanding that I will probably be called a sexist and/or an extreme conservative....I am not sympathetic with or agreeable to the argument advanced by many "feminist" (their own label) scholars who argue that we need to revamp and overhaul not only our language, but our entire way of thinking, in order to accommodate their agenda. I'm not interested in doing that.

» pink101 - Good Golly, Molly!

In response to Staying on track... posted by BrianTubbs:
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Good Golly, Molly!
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How many times must I say that my intention is not for this thread to be a basis for argumentation?
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To repeat, my interest is to unravel the subject to see if we can learn what Feminism is all about.
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I've posited a couple of ideas with which we could begin some work.
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I don't know that Feminism is anything worthwhile or not; but, I'm sure willing to consider its features and claims.
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I do believe that the first claim is reasonable and worthy of our consideration.
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Let me make a point, ok?
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Over the past few decades, I've heard various comments made by women and echoed by some men that they were NOT there when society was organized or when the rules were written. When those statements were run by me, I thought, "O.K., neither was I; but, so what? I still am influenced by the status quo and have to abide by its rules."
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Now that I am looking into Feminism in some light study, I see that as paramount to the basic claim that society is already in place before we have anything to say about its make up and rules. That's not just the laws that control our day to day experiences; but, it is specific to the idea of our social structure and perspectives on reality.
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How can we deal with such a theory as Feminism unless we understand what it claims to be the situation in which we exist?
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I know that there is a connection to religion--not just Christianity; but, more importantly to Judaism and Islam both of which are far more conservative than Christianity when it comes to social structure.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Good Golly, Molly!

In response to Good Golly, Molly! posted by pink101:

I know that text in a discussion board can come off as more combative than is intended. I'm really not trying to be argumentative. It's just that I've read a lot of feminist scholarship - and a lot of it gets into the "need" (as they see it) of overhauling the English language and changing the very concept of how we define things and/or make decisions and so forth. I am just admitting to you (and whoever else is reading) that I'm not ready to go there. As a citizen, I'm not willing to overturn the entire social order or overhaul our entire culture and language. And that IS precisely what some of the more 'radical' (if I can use that adjective) feminist scholars are advocating.

An example of that in religious circles is the redefinition of the Trinity - something that the Presbyterian church is considering. I'm not willing to go there.