Protestantism

» redback - Six Nations' influence overstated

In response to Six Nations' influence overstated posted by Migisi:

We've had about 30 state/federal politicians of Native American ancestry since the 1860s...

I may have done a disservice to OZ but I'm no great historian and limited time now for research. I know we sent a full-blood Aboriginal cricket team to the UK in the 1890s and my recollections without new research, is that politics is not the first place Aussies think of "belonging to". I know our history is rife with politics where those within it, can't believe most of OZ life exists outside it. (Power without Glory by Frank Hardy is a great read)

Aboriginals have certainly got into rugby league, boxing, tennis, singing and art etc from early times. Maybe have moved into other careers from there, including the law, trade unions ...stepping stones to politics. But there was also much resistance to identifying one's Aboriginality given the distrust over the use of the data.

I'd have to ask what the criteria is for 'made it'.

By my reckoning, when it is at least a mainstream Aboriginal belief. When their rates of ill-health etc etc are reasonably objectively, comparable.

I see artificial separations...between church and state...between the role of white fella and native...over issues of the nation's development. By definition, only one person ever becomes President at any one time so on his shoulders ALL the glory? If the question was limited to key political or religious figures, then like Henry Ford, they get relative credit for their creations IMO.

-- posted by redback

» redback - No Freedom of Speech in OZ

In response to No Freedom of Speech in OZ posted by Migisi:

Earlier, I commented: This topic is interesting in the contrasts... between us. so I'm left to ponder who has ended up with the best mix between the USA and OZ...in 2008.

Here, you ask: but are you ~required~ to vote? Do you have the 'right' to NOT vote?

You must vote here unless you "have a valid or sufficient reason." Postal voting covers many attendance ills...if you're unable or worship etc...on the Saturday.

Well, the law (since the 1920s) only requires us to register...usually by turning up at the polling booth and having a line run through our names and handed the voting papers.

Fines from $AUD20 to $AUD55 depending on federal or state/s.

BUT if we're not enrolled in the first place, we have a "valid & sufficient reason" as there's no name to cross off! There is NO fine for not enrolling as they use the Electoral Rolls for sending out the fines for not voting.

What a novel way to get folks to the polling place...

You might be interested in this analysis...why keep the law against the international tide:

http://www.cis.org.au/policy/summer%2097...

-- posted by redback

» Migisi - Six Nations' influence overstated

In response to Six Nations' influence overstated posted by redback:
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But there was also much resistance to identifying one's Aboriginality given the distrust over the use of the data.
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Understandable. I know many natives here who don't reveal their ancestry to avoid any associated stigma.
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When their rates of ill-health etc etc are reasonably objectively, comparable.
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Compare their ill-health rates to whom? With each ethnicity in the population (e.g. our melting pot -- black, latino, asian, white European, Pacific islanders, arab, etc.)?
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I see artificial separations...between church and state...between the role of white fella and native...over issues of the nation's development.
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Would you expand on your observation of 'artifical separations' a bit more?

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Compulsory voting

In response to No Freedom of Speech in OZ posted by redback:

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This topic is interesting in the contrasts... between us. so I'm left to ponder who has ended up with the best mix between the USA and OZ...in 2008.
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'Best mix' is in the eye of the beholder.
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Here's another interesting article, IMO.
Compulsory Voting
http://www.idea.int/vt/compulsory_voting...
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It offers the pros and cons of compulsory voting, and charts other countries (Belgium, Cyrpus, etc.) with similar laws (some with stiff penalties). It never occurred to me that people would be compelled by law to participate in elections. I've learned something new in our discussion.
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BUT if we're not enrolled in the first place, we have a "valid & sufficient reason" as there's no name to cross off!
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The court system here uses the voter registration pool to select jurors. Many people don't register just for this reason... they don't want their lives disrupted by compulsory jury duty.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Several Points

In response to Several Points posted by pink101:

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I don't think I realized how important they were to our founding.
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Quoting from: http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revo...
"On the other hand, Indians from the mission town at Stockbridge in western Massachusetts, like most New England Indians, supported their colonial neighbors. They volunteered as minutemen even before the outbreak of the fighting, joined Washington's army at the siege of Boston, and served in New York, New Jersey, and Canada."
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By far, this is THE most detailed and fascinating site for NA history that I've found. Check it out:
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/native_...
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Quoting from the above site:
"In his autobiography, William Apes, a Pequot, offers an Indian perspective on the early history of relations between the English colonists and the native peoples of New England.
Year: 1636
Text: "...December, 1620, the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, and without asking liberty from anyone, they possessed themselves of a portion of the country, and built themselves houses, and then made a treaty and commanded them [the Indians] to accede to it.... And yet for their kindness and resignation towards the whites, they were called savages, and made by God on purpose for them to destroy....
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"The next we present before you are things very appalling. We turn our attention to dates, 1623, January and March, when Mr. Weston Colony, came very near to starving to death; some of them were obliged to hire themselves to the Indians, to become their servants in order that they might live. Their principal work was to bring wood and water; but not being contented with this, many of the white sought to steal the Indians' corn; and because the Indians complained of it, and through their complaint, some one of their number being punished, as they say, to appease the savages. Now let us see who the greatest savages were; the person that stole the corn was a stout athletic man, and because of this, they wished to spare him, and take an old man who was lame and sickly...and because they thought he would not be of so much use to them, he was, although innocent of any crime, hung in his stead....
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"Another act of humanity for Christians, as they call themselves, that one Capt. Standish, gathering some fruit and provisions, goes forward with a black and hypocritical heart, and pretends to prepare a feast for the Indians; and when they sit down to eat, they seize the Indians' knives hanging around their necks, and stab them in the heart....
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"The Pilgrims promised to deliver up every transgressor of the Indian treaty, to them, to be punished according to their laws, and the Indians were to do likewise. Now it appears that an Indian had committed treason, by conspiring against the king's [Massasoit's] life, which is punishable with death...and the Pilgrims refused to give him, although by their oath of alliance they had promised to do so....
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"In this history of Massasoit we find that his own head men were not satisfied with the Pilgrims; that they looked upon them to be intruders, and had a wish to expel those intruders out of their coast. A false report was made respecting one Tisquantum, that he was murdered by an Indian.... Upon this news, one Standish, a vile and malicious fellow, took fourteen of his lewd Pilgrims with him...at midnight....At that late hour of the night, meeting at [the Indian's] house in the wilderness, whose inmates heard--"Move not, upon the peril of your life." At the same time some of the females were so frightened, that some of them undertook to make their escape, upon which they were fired upon.... These Indians had not done one single wrong act to the whites, but were as innocent of any crime, as any beings in the world. But if the real suffers say one word, they are denounced, as being wild and savage beasts....
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"We might suppose that meek Christians had better gods and weapons than cannon. But let us again review their weapons to civilize the nations of this soil. What were they: rum and powder, and ball, together with all the diseases, such as the small pox, and every other disease imaginable; and in this way sweep of thousands and tens of thousands."
---- Source: William Apes, Eulogy on King Philip (Boston, 1836), 10 ff.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Native Patriots

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DEATH IN THE BRONX
http://americanrevolution.org/ind3.html
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Service to the United States
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"The Stockbridges sided early with the Patriots. The young men of the community, Indian, white and black served in local companies formed into militia, state and Continental regiments. In addition to playing an active role in the military history of the Revolution, the Stockbridge Mohicans played a vital role in diplomacy with their Algonquin brethren, notably the Delaware and Shawnees, on the frontier. The American government utilized the Mohicans as liaisons with their western relations in an attempt to keep the frontier free from the raids and bloodshed that all too frequently accompanied warfare on the fringes of colonial settlement.
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"John Sergeant, Jr., son of one of the first missionaries at Stockbridge, wrote to Congress in November, 1776:
-- "Far from desiring to remain neuter in the dispute between Great-Britain and America, they have made themselves acquainted with the merits of the controversy, and have taken an active part in our favor, inlisting [sic] their young men in our Army, while their counsellors and sachems have carefully sent belts of wampum by their messengers to the Six Nations, to the Canada Indians, and to the Shauwanes, on the Ohio, addressing them in such teems as they judged would have the greatest tendency to attach them to the interests of the United States."
-- (quoted in The American Revolution in Indian Country by Colin G. Calloway; Cambridge University Press, 1995, p. 95.)
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If you enjoy studying the era, here's a good site too, IMO: The Real Story of the American Revolution
Social and Ethnic Groups
http://www.rsar.org/history/social.htm

-- posted by Migisi

» redback - Six Nations' influence overstated

In response to Six Nations' influence overstated posted by Migisi:

Compare their ill-health rates to whom?

There are many measures reported in OZ contrasting the Aboriginal vs all non-indigenous populations. Here's one:

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/Social_Justice/s...

I hate generalisations. Maybe some Aboriginal groups...location by location...do better than the national rates and averages indicate. But Aboriginals living in the Northern Territory and traditional communities experience the highest infant mortality rates...the highest rates of adult chronic illnesses. (7-times the rate of diabetes) And the causes are multi-dimensional.

And don't dilute the serious problems many non-indigenous people face...their pockets of poverty...as the aim is to improve, not bring it all down to a common denominator.

Would you expand on your observation of 'artifical separations' a bit more?

I think the lines for me are blurred by actual fact, rather than by pure theory. Assume true separation is the whole A-Z. Assume we expect to see a different outcome IF there was the true separation we seem to demand...so what difference can we see...or aim for.

What's the real question for me? There should be a separation of church and state when it only comes to issues X, Y, Z??? Or there really IS a separation of church and state when it only comes to issues A, B, C???? I can't seem to pin it down sensibly.

The USA on the one hand was ...the first country to COMPLETELY (my emphasis) disestablish its government from any religion... yet per the hotlink below, has it really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_...

The 2nd issue about the artificial separation between white fella and native in who gets fair credit for nation-building...goes to purpose. Just because Brian limited his scope thus conclusion, I didn't limit my question. I think the creation of a nation took a lot of hard work by people where race was irrelevant...thus impossible to quantify. As indicated previously, the interest seemed focused on the political leaders of the day. An artificial limitation, given the question. Maybe WASP-ish.

-- posted by redback

» redback - Compulsory voting

In response to Compulsory voting posted by Migisi:

I boringly keep repeating my wish to gain an end-result eg "best mix". Tis ingrained in me...like wanting to know a 'purpose'.

The link was interesting and between the two, gives the full range of views, methinks. Interesting OZ was described as strictly enforcing sanctions. Yeah, right! Maybe aimed at intending migrants.

The candidates also get taxpayer funds based on votes received.

In compulsory voting, there is a higher rate of informal voting. Last year's Federal election it was just under 4%. And a 95% turnout at the polls. So, the USA has a "more democratic" voluntary system? So, what turnout?

-- posted by redback

» Migisi - Compulsory voting

In response to Compulsory voting posted by redback:

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The candidates also get taxpayer funds based on votes received.
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How's that work? Are their wages/salaries based on votes received? Or, funding for their projects based on it?
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And a 95% turnout at the polls. So, the USA has a "more democratic" voluntary system? So, what turnout?
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Lots of demo/geo graphics, registration, and voter turnout data here:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-...
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Quoting:
"In November 2004, of the 216 million people who were 18 and older, 197 million were citizens and 142 million were registered. In the November election, 126 million people voted. Thus, the voting rates for the population 18 and older were 58 percent of the total voting-age population, 64 percent of the voting-age citizen population, and 89 percent of
the registered population."
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-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Moral High Ground #2

In response to Moral High Ground posted by Migisi:

Replying to Migisi...

I contend that historians have UNDER-stated the Native American influence. IMO, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

There is no direct, historical evidence to support the claims made by those who assert a wide or broad Native American influence over our Founding Fathers. The evidence just isn't there, no matter how much you want it to be - or how much other historians want it to be.

The red heathens have traditionally been depicted by white Christian historians as morally inferior to Christians of any color. NAs were also depicted as intellectually deficient - which automatically ruled out any notion that they could've had any influence in the formation of any 'sophisicated' government.

To the extent that this stereotype is true (and not all early Americans embraced this stereotype), it doesn't change the historical fact. In other words, saying that Native Americans were mistreated doesn't justify revising history to expand their role in it. The only thing that warrants revising history is the discovery of new evidence - new information - to prove or at least strongly indicate that historical scholarship should be adjusted.

As a Baptist pastor, you're required to believe and preach that Christianity IS morally superior to other faiths. You have indeed said as much in your articles and posts.

First, that is not at issue here. We are on a tangent from the topic - as usual. I am commenting on the Six Nation influence as a historian, not as a Baptist pastor.

Second, even AS a Baptist pastor, it is NOT my principal task or role or desire to spend my time and energy criticizing or condemning other religions. Rather, I focus on proclaiming and living my own faith.