Protestantism

» Migisi - No Freedom of Speech in OZ

In response to No Freedom of Speech in OZ posted by redback:

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BTW: While we have the very fundamental "right" to vote we have fought for, the law gives the government a right to fine us if we don't register to vote each polling day.
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What a novel way to get folks to the polling place!! It requires you to register (as a method for taking a population census??) -- but are you ~required~ to vote? Do you have the 'right' to NOT vote?

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Six Nations' influence overstated

In response to Six Nations' influence overstated posted by BrianTubbs:
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The evidence is all circumstantial and is based on a lot of 'what-if's,' 'could-be's,' 'maybes,' etc. The theory stays alive, because certain folks WANT it to be true.
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The solid 'evidence' you demand doesn't exist on the Native American side. They didn't record their history in writing, but passed it down ~orally~ through generations (like the ancient Hebrews of the Bible). Many tribes which existed back then were extirpated, so we can't know what historical knowledge was lost forever. Given that Indians were viewed as worthless savage heathens deserving extermination, why would white Christian history writers reflect anything good about them - except for certain Indians who assisted in the white Europeans' survival, exploration, and expansion.
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you and Migisi (and a couple others) are so far to the LEFT that it makes moderates like me look like ultra-conservatives.
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If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be .... an ultra-conservative.... tee hee.
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-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Moral High Ground

In response to Six Nations' influence overstated posted by Migisi:
Two of the points I've made here have been (and remain)....

1. That certain historians have over-stated the influence that Native Americans had on the founding of the United States, especially the formation of the U.S. Constitution.

2. That Christianity has played a major role in fashioning the idea of the Separation of Church and State. I specifically mentioned Jesus in Matthew 22:21 and Augustine.

I want to make sure that we aren't shifting the terms of this discussion to a broader point about "moral high ground." For instance, my saying that the Six Nation Confederacy didn't play a direct role in informing the Founding Fathers of the United States is NOT the same thing as arguing that the Six Nation Confederacy was somehow inferior (morally-speaking) to "white fellas."

What's more, my pointing out that Augustine wrote The City of God (a historical FACT), a book that deeply influenced the western world's thinking on matters of church and state - and which informed much of the deliberations that led to America's Founders separating the two spheres institutionally -- my pointing those things out does not equate to my saying that Christianity is morally superior to other faiths.

Let's not shift the parameters of the discussion.

» pink101 - Twinges of The Moment

In response to Moral High Ground posted by BrianTubbs:

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Like you said in your first post in this thread, we're good at tangents.
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The factual aspect that seems most obvious to me is that we enter into a social world that was created by our predecessors.
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Somehow, we have to admit that the United States of America has been governed by a secular government that is twinged by religious fervor from time to time.
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We have been frequently stabbed by religionism as it has made demands on our laws and behavior as a nation of free thinking people. We are presently pricked by its forcefulness and its demands for a front row seat.
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But, the question of this thread is whether or not our founding fathers were Deists or Christians. I wonder why we ask the question if it isn't one more twinge to get us to bow down to the God of the Bible as a People?
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It seems to me that our nation was founded on what those who had predeceased our founders had built. And, what they had built was a strong distaste for a church state operation of government. So, it seems, again, to me that our government was founded by men who wanted no part of religion in government; but, who had to give in to the twinges of the moment.

-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Moral High Ground

In response to Moral High Ground posted by BrianTubbs:
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1. That certain historians have over-stated the influence that Native Americans had on the founding of the United States, especially the formation of the U.S. Constitution.
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I contend that historians have UNDER-stated the Native American influence. IMO, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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2. That Christianity has played a major role in fashioning the idea of the Separation of Church and State. I specifically mentioned Jesus in Matthew 22:21 and Augustine.
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And I specifically mentioned Jefferson - a Deist - and presented historical documents indicating his major role in fashioning that separation. I do agree that Christians were involved in its adoption, since it did benefit them to do so.
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... NOT the same thing as arguing that the Six Nation Confederacy was somehow inferior (morally-speaking) to "white fellas."...
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The red heathens have traditionally been depicted by white Christian historians as morally inferior to Christians of any color. NAs were also depicted as intellectually deficient - which automatically ruled out any notion that they could've had any influence in the formation of any 'sophisicated' government.
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... my pointing those things out does not equate to my saying that Christianity is morally superior to other faiths.
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As a Baptist pastor, you're required to believe and preach that Christianity IS morally superior to other faiths. You have indeed said as much in your articles and posts.
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Let's not shift the parameters of the discussion.
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You've shifted the parameters by your posting here. Discussion will go where it will.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Several Points

In response to Moral High Ground posted by Migisi:
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I think you have sufficient information available to you to start a thread on the influence Native Americans have had on American culture.
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There are several points about Native American influence that can be put on the table other than the one you two have addressed.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Twinges of The Moment

In response to Twinges of The Moment posted by pink101:
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So, it seems, again, to me that our government was founded by men who wanted no part of religion in government; but, who had to give in to the twinges of the moment.
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And they wanted no part of government in religion.
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As I learned it (and you too, I'm sure), the main reason the Puritans left England was because they disagreed with the Church of England's teachings. They weren't satisfied with the reforms the English church adopted after it separated from the RC church. In 1593, the English parliament outlawed nonAnglican congregations, and everyone was obliged to attend Anglican services. The pilgrims defied the law, and the King's agents persecuted them for sedition and heresy. So, they moved to the Netherlands first, and then to the new world, where they figured the King (and Spanish Catholics) wouldn't bother them.
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Both the Puritan ~and~ the Deist objected to being compelled to accept religious doctrines they didn't believe in, and forced to attend a church not of their choosing. Despite this, state/church power struggles eventually caused problems in their new land too. Hence, the 'wall of separation' became necessary to insure that government didn't control religion, and religion didn't control the government - as in England.
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This is an excellent site IMO for documents and history regarding the relationship between govenment and religion:
Religion and the Founding of the American Republic
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel...

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Several Points

In response to Several Points posted by pink101:

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I think you have sufficient information available to you to start a thread on the influence Native Americans have had on American culture.
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Actually, no need for a thread, Pink. There's a plethora of info and lots of good stuff here at Suite already, if folks are interested:
http://nativeamericanfirstnationshistory...

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Several Points

In response to Several Points posted by pink101:
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You brought up a good point before about how a preceding culture can influence/impact the next (or present). I think you'd find this interesting:
The Forgotten Fathers
Chapter 1, "A Composite Culture"
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nati...
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And maybe this might catch your interest too.
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Exemplar of Liberty: Native America
and the Evolution of Democracy
Chapter 6, THE WHITE ROOTS REACH OUT
The Iroquois Confederacy urges the colonists to unite
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nati...

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Several Points

In response to Several Points posted by Migisi:

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Thanx-a-lot for the links.
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I enjoy reading much of the stuff you and Brian are posting about the influence the Native Culture had on the Colonial thinking as our Forefathers evolved to found our society.
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I don't think I realized how important they were to our founding.
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-- posted by pink101