Protestantism

» redback - We're The Good Guys ......

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by pink101:

The link you gave earlier is interesting in that Eisenhower is the only one who 'converted' in office and made a cuppla symbolic changes re: 'In God We Trust' and 'Under God'.

Why, we're the good guys. Haven't you noticed?

I CAN now recognise a Christian in the street, thanks!

http://www.thegoodguys.com.au/portal/pag...

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - We're The Good Guys ......

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by redback:

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Don't forget to tip your hat.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - We're The Good Guys ......

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by redback:
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I CAN now recognise a Christian in the street, thanks!
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They're easy to spot... Good Guys Wear Black (a Chuck Norris 1978 'commando' movie). And who's the celeb spokesman for Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee? Why sure... it's Chuck for Huck. Ironic, no?
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A good article at Newdawn. Thanks.
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On Washington, quoting from:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/e...
"Bird Wilson, Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, was one of the first openly to challenge in public the pietistic picture of Washington that was being built up by [Mason Locke] Weems and his followers. In a sermon delivered in October, 1831, which attracted wide attention when it was reported in the Albany Daily Advertiser, Wilson stated flatly that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than unitarianism." Washington, he went on to say, was a great and good man, but he was not a professor of religion; he was really a typical eighteenth-century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook. (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15.)
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"Like his father before him, he [George Washington] served actively for many years as one of the twelve vestrymen for Truro parish, Virginia, in which Mount Vernon was located. According to Charles H. Callahan, "The regularity of his attendance at the meetings of the vestry and the progress of church work throughout the parish during his incumbency is a striking testimonial of the religious zeal and activity of him and his associates." Actually, under the Anglican establishment in Virginia before the Revolution, the duties of a parish vestry were as much civil as religious in nature and it is not possible to deduce any exceptional religious zeal from the mere fact of membership. Even Thomas Jefferson was a vestryman for a while... Consisting of the leading gentlemen of the parish in position and influence (many of whom, like Washington, were also at one time or other members of the County Court and of the House of Burgesses), the parish vestry, among other things, levied the parish taxes, handled poor relief, fixed land boundaries in the parish, supervised the construction, furnishing, and repairs of churches, and hired ministers and paid their salaries. *As Bishop William Meade put it, somewhat nastily, in 1857: "Even Mr. Jefferson, and [George] Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence." (William Meade, Old Churches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, 2 vols.; Philadelphia, 1857, I, 191). (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 26.)
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"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." -- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom)
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"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta* of our country." -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, *the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution)
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"Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a mode of Worship which they do not profess." -- George Washington, to John Hancock, then president of Congress, expressing opposition to a congressional plan to appoint brigade chaplains in the Continental Army (1777), quoted from a letter to Cliff Walker from Doug Harper (2002))
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"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- (George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726.)
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George Washington's adopted daughter, Nelly Custis-Lewis, spent twenty years with the Washington family. Many use her 26 February, 1833 letter to Jared Sparks to 'prove' Washington was a Christian. In that letter (after Washington's death)(quoting here: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArt... ), she admits: "... I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].... "He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. .... ... "I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation...". Nelly's 'confirmation' that her step father was a Christian is merely ~presumption~ on her part.

-- posted by Migisi

» redback - We're The Good Guys ......

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by Migisi:

I think it's a reasonable task to 'appoint' good role models to any endeavour, including Christianity. I'm sure you've the Tall Poppy Syndrome there as the role model gets...deconstructed? The role model gets rolled.

But to me, there's a sort of twisted thinking that says: unless the President is a Christian, he can't be a good man; Washington was a good man ergo he is a Christian.

It's interesting Washington was idealistic: the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. Of course history through the Religious Right etc now tells us they think in effect, Washington was totally wrong.

The path of true & proper bedroom behaviour is so obvious, it doesn't need the government prying into it...and so on.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Nail Squarely On The Head..

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by redback:

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I think you may have hit squarely the nail on the head.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Addressing a tangent

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by redback:

One of the tangents that seems to have spun off from this discussion is the accusation that Christians need "good guy" role models to affirm their faith and/or legitimacy.

If that is truly an accusation I'm reading here (and maybe it's not, but if it is...), then I think this discussion has veered off into a strange direction -- where the critics of Christianity forget an obvious point. That being...

Christianity needs no role model beyond Jesus Christ himself!

No one comes close to Christ. Not George Washington. Not Martin Luther King. Not Abraham Lincoln. Not anyone.

Jesus is the greatest role model of all time, and is the founder of Christianity. Christians need look no further than Jesus.

So, do not see my arguments in favor of George Washington's Christian faith as being borne out of some desperate insecurity to bolster Christianity's credibility. Given a choice between Jesus and George Washington, I take Jesus any day of the week - and twice on Sunday.

» Brian Tubbs - Logic Breakdown

In response to We're The Good Guys ...... posted by redback:

redback writes:

It's interesting Washington was idealistic: the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. Of course history through the Religious Right etc now tells us they think in effect, Washington was totally wrong.

The path of true & proper bedroom behaviour is so obvious, it doesn't need the government prying into it...and so on.

We have it on historical record that George Washington drummed homosexuals out of the Continental Army. We also have it on historical record that, in Washington's day, no state recognized same-sex marriages or civil unions. Or polygamy. Or any other (shall we say) alternate lifestyle when it came to marriage and family.

Therefore, his response to those wanting a more overt Christian Constitution was absolutely proper and understandable in that day. There was no need for it!

What is also forgotten is that all the states had recognized churches, except for (I believe) Rhode Island and (possibly) one other (Maryland?) - someone can double-check me on that. Yet I believe ALL the state constitutions recognized God or Christianity.

You must take GW's statements in context in order to extrapolate the right principles. Otherwise, we're just lifting quotes out of thin air - and flinging them around recklessly.

» pink101 - Addressing a tangent

In response to Addressing a tangent posted by BrianTubbs:
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Brian writes, Christianity needs no role model beyond Jesus Christ himself!
No one comes close to Christ. Not George Washington. Not Martin Luther King. Not Abraham Lincoln. Not anyone.
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This is a position on which most Evangelicals and Fundamentalists whole heartedly come into agreement.
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If we accept it as a foundational statement of fact, we should have no problem whatsoever in identifying those personal characteristics that set Christ apart from all others in such a clear cut manner.
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So, Brian, would you just list the factors here in proof of your comments that "no one comes close to Christ"? Maybe some of the less well informed need to gain some understanding for their own perspective.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Washington & Chaplains

Migisi provides an example of lifting a quote out of context. Her offering Washington's quote in a letter to John Hancock about brigade chaplains. Were that quote to slide by unchallenged, it would APPEAR that GW opposed chaplains in the Continental Army, because he didn't want soldiers forced to practice a faith they didn't agree with.

There's only one problem with that.

That problem would be....

The TRUTH!

George Washington is the one who insisted on army chaplains in the first place. I'm a US Army chaplain candidate, and I know my chaplaincy history. George Washington is the father of the military chaplain corps. In fact, when the constitutionality of chaplains was contested in the 1980s, the defenders of the chaplaincy pointed to George Washington.

How could the chaplaincy be unconstitutional if the president of the Constitutional Convention and the first President of the United States (who supported the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment) supported it?

A great question - and one that led the Supreme Court to uphold military chaplains.

Washington's difference with Hancock and some of the Congress was on the STRUCTURE of the chaplaincy - how they would be apportioned, etc.

As for Washington being some kind of faith-neutral commander-in-chief, get over that myth! This is a guy who signed a general order calling on his men to be "Christian soldiers."

"The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier, defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."
--From General George Washington, July 9, 1776

Oh, by the way, this is the same order in which he ordered the appointment of regimental (not brigade) chaplains.

» Brian Tubbs - Jesus

In response to Addressing a tangent posted by pink101:

Pink, I know I'm younger than you are, but I'm wise enough not to get drawn into a listing game with you.

The most important message of Christianity - indeed, THE message of Christianity is that "Jesus saves." Anyone curious can find that central message is John 3:16 and again in John 14:6 and again in Romans 10:9-13 and again in Ephesians 2:8-9 and...well...I could go on.

Having said that, Jesus lived a sinless life - something we cannot. But we can (once we get that central message of salvation taken care of) aspire to live according to Jesus' greatest commandments - to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind -- and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus taught those commandments, and lived up to them in their fullest.