Protestantism

» EvilChihuahua - Free Speech?

On the 30th of December my mate and 2 others were arrested whilst preaching. Here's the story from his Xanga blog:

http://www.xanga.com/Josh_Williamson?nex...

The news reported gale force winds, and heavy rain for the Gold Coast, but we decided that we would still go out and witness to those who went to the beach to see the six metre high surf.

Upon arrival it was raining, so Josh Mitchell and Ryan started handing out tracts while Dave and I kept an eye on the teams equipment. Once the rain stopped we noticed the crowd rush to the beach front, so we went to where we normally preach and began to declare the gospel.

Josh Mitchell and Ryan Hemelaar went first, and they preached even though we were being pounded by strong winds, and sand being blown from the beach. A few people stopped to listen, and a couple even heckled. After about twenty minutes the heavens opened up and the rain began again. So once again we took cover, after about five minutes of rain it stopped so again we went back to the beach front.

This time it was my turn to preach, so I jumped up and preached from Hebrews 9:27, and how it is appointed for us to die once and then judgment. A small crowd gathered, and a heckler opened up on me saying that there was no historical evidence for Jesus. So as I did the night before I made an apologetic argument for the historic Jesus Christ.

It was hard preaching in gale force winds, so after about twenty minutes, I tagged Josh Mitchell in to preach. He was preaching for about ten minutes when it began to rain again, but this time we kept preaching, and there were four young men sitting on a seat listening to the gospel, and they were asking some good questions.

Let me set the scene for you. Picture one preacher, addressing four listeners. Behind the preach stood Ryan and I. It was onto this scene that things got nasty.

As I stood behind Josh Mitchell I noticed two Queensland police officers approach us. By the way they came towards us we knew they were coming to speak to us. However, speaking seemed to be the furthest thing from their mind.

They split up and went either side of Josh Mitchell, and as they did this I noticed the rank of a Sergeant and a Constable. They then both grabbed an arm of Josh Mitchell and pulled him down from preaching and forced him to his knees.

At no stage had they said about any law being broken, but they just decided to bring the preacher down. Josh Mitchell complied with their forceful actions, and as they stood him up I noticed that in his left hand, he was still gripping the Bible. The police turned to Ryan and I and asked if we were with him. We answered that we were so they ordered us to follow them to the Cavill Avenue police station.

Josh Mitchell was restrained the whole distance of the walk from the beach front to the police station, and we were all at a lost to what was going on.

Upon arrival at the station Josh Mitchell was taken into the holding area while Ryan and I waited in the waiting room. Before they took Josh away he requested that I come with him to be his witness for the interview. This got be pushed in the chest by the Sergeant and then yelled at.

Once the Sergeant and Josh Mitchell had gone I turned to the Constable who was not behind the front counter and I asked him for his name and details. The officer refused, and would not say anything. So I asked again, this time he gave me his name and rank. I then proceeded to ask for the Sergeants name, and all the constable would say is "his name is Sergeant".

I was also ignored by him when I asked what law we had broken. Since the police were not being forthcoming in what we had actually done wrong, I said that I would be making a formal complaint. And I began to write some notes down in my note book. It was then that I got the greatest shock of the whole situation.

While my back was turned the Constable came out from behind the counter and grabbed me by the neck and upper arm and slammed me into the wall. I called out that this was assault and he replied "Tough!" He then dragged me by my neck further into the station at the same time yelling "You're under-arrest!"

I was then manhandled down the hall way into the holding area where I was reunited with Josh Mitchell. None of us resisted what was going on, but we were both praying that God's will be done.

Since I was under-arrest, I asked for a lawyer, and it was then that the police became rather abusive and made offensive sexual comments towards us. During this whole time they never once told us what law we had broken, however, they did make many offensive comments against Christianity.

For about fifteen minutes we were in the holding area, and finally the Sergeant changed and became a lot more friendly. He told us that he would release us without charge, and that we could go free. But he still wouldn't say what we had done wrong. We were however, ordered to leave that part of the Gold Coast or be arrested again.

We left the area and straight away began to write our notes out so that we had an accurate record of what happened. We also took the time then to make a formal complaint to the Crime and Misconduct Commission, who are now investigating.

Please pray for the conversion of those two Queensland Police officers, and that God will get the Glory!

In Australia (or at least Queensland), public preaching is legal. The incident didn't faze them however. The following night (New Years Eve) I saw him and his crew witnessing in Brisbanes City's Queen Street (which, that night, was swamped with millions of party goers). He's currently preaching in the UK.

I've known him since we were in Bible College together and we both did Missonary work in Outback Queensland in 2003. At only 21 years old he already has a huge Ministry before him and I believe he's on the way to being promoted to sergent in the Army Reserve. One thing I learnt the hard way with him is it's impossible to win a debate with him. Apologetics is his specialty and often engages in Creation/Evolution debates. Usually while preaching he encounters someone who challenges him on this subject. As of yet no Evolutionist has won a debate. Lately he has encounted people challenging him on the subject of a Historical Jesus. Once again, he is yet to lose said debate.

I've found him to be a very inspirational person as he is not one who worries about being politically correct and cares not for how the world sees him. He has clearly shown time and time again that his only desire in life is to preach God's word and to bring as many people to know Christ as he can.

-- posted by EvilChihuahua

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» redback - Free Speech?

Can you link me to the media report, if any?

we decided that we would still go out and witness to those who went to the beach to see the six metre high surf...

It was hard preaching in gale force winds

So, a gale, waves 20 feet high and the police running around doing the useless things police apparently do in gales. My initial thought was you're risking your lives, those who you encourage to stay and those who may need to attempt to rescue or treat you if hit by flying debris...if it became necessary. These were kids unexposed to iPods etc who could actually hear you preaching above the gale? And all of you heard the police yelling at you above all that!

Hey...I'll allow a fellow Aussie some creative licence here...but when you add Let me set the scene for you. can you paint it a little simpler for this old fella?

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me to hear similar complaints from the 3 (2 now deceased) who used the stormwater drains to meet, drink, graffiti. They also needed a Reach Out program...and it all should be able to happen without those pesky police? ABC

-- posted by redback

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» Migisi - Or Public Safety?

In response to Free Speech? posted by redback:
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Kim wrote: "On the 30th of December my mate and 2 others were arrested whilst preaching."
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Quoting from Sat Dec 29
Winds build 4m swells on Gold Coast
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/...
"All Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast beaches are expected to be closed until tomorrow...
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"Gold Coast chief lifesaver Warren Young is warning beach-goers to steer clear of the water until next week...
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"Conditions that are anything like we're getting now can really do some damage to people," he said.
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Quoting from: Saturday December 29, 06:46 PM
Wild winds close SE Qld beaches
http://au.news.yahoo.com/071229/21/15e3k...
"Most beaches along south-east Queensland's coasts are expected to stay closed for the next couple of days due to a low pressure system that is producing wild winds, pounding surf and king tides...
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"There's quite a large fetch of gale force winds to sea, and we're not likely to see those seas abate pretty much all this week."
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------------
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Gale force winds lash Coast - 4Jan08
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008...
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When beaches are closed for the public's safety, officers' lives are put at great risk when they have to remove or rescue people - for their own good. Kim's friends should've heeded those warnings, which clearly, had been publicized. Just my opinion, of course.

-- posted by Migisi

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» EvilChihuahua - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by Migisi:

It's all well and good, but why was he arrested for writing a complaint about the way they were being treated? Also, why were they not told why they were escorted to the station? I have a few cops in my family and they said they when someone is escorted to a police station, legally they have to be informed why. The cops in question refused to this, thus breaking the law.

I think there is a misunderstanding about the location. They didn't stand on the beach to preach. That would just be plain stupid. Even on a fine day they don't preach there. The place they choose to preach at is the beach front near Cavil Ave. Also note that Cavil Ave, the beach and the beach front were strangely packed that day despite warnings. Plus, I believe there were many people putting themselves in even more danger by surfing in the water on that day. Stangely, not one surfer was arrested. People were also bringing their families to the beach that day (there was an article about that in my local paper).

By the sounds of it, the 2 police targeted Josh and his 2 companions (please note Migisi that Josh is the only one of them who is my friend as I have yet to meet the other 2 men) because they were Christians (Josh noted the cops made anti-Christian remarks). Public safety appeared to be the least of these officers worries. If you read Josh's blog you'll see that some people were present to hear their message and they were talking to a few young guys (quote:A few people stopped to listen, and a couple even heckled. and there were four young men sitting on a seat listening to the gospel, and they were asking some good questions and A small crowd gathered, and a heckler opened up on me saying that there was no historical evidence for Jesus.). If they were concerned about public safety, why were these people not escorted too? Why weren't the surfers or families? Also, according to my Uncle and Auntie, who work as cops at the Gold Coast, these 2 officers first should have warned them of the dangers of being outdoors that day and should have asked them to move indoors or to a safer location. Legally, they were only allowed to escort them if (a) they refused and (b) they began to get violent. Also, when one is held in a holding area they are permitted to call a lawyer and one is permitted to make a complaint in the nature Josh chose (writing down notes). The officer was breaking the law for manhandling Josh as Josh was not breaking any laws. According to my Auntie and Uncle, these officers could now lose their jobs and face criminal charges.

Also I doubt this story is exaggerated as I have never know Josh to stretch the truth.

-- posted by EvilChihuahua

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» redback - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by Migisi:

I knew of the sorts of weather conditions Queensland was copping but not of the alleged incident. I made a mistake...I thought Kim was there too as the initial post suggested 4 people were there at one stage. (Sorry, Kim! But the substance of my post stands.)

As you note, it was reported as 4 metre waves rather than the 6 metres experienced by the intrepid trio. If the actual beaches are closed ie the golden sands...then logically, the promenades or access to them may be monitored by police to prevent silly people entering the beach.

Maybe the facts will be clearer once/IF any court action proceeds or police are disciplined etc. The police in Queensland have a reputation for being a bit r/tough. But the loss of free speech...in a gale...seems a stretch to prove.

-- posted by redback

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» Migisi - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by EvilChihuahua:
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I'm not defending police misbehavior, if there was any. It comes down to a case of 'he said - they said'. If Josh feels he was mistreated - for whatever reason - then by all means, he should file a complaint.
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By the sounds of it, the 2 police targeted Josh and his 2 companions ... because they were Christians (Josh noted the cops made anti-Christian remarks). Public safety appeared to be the least of these officers worries.
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The Queensland cops had nothing better to do that day than to venture out in pounding gale-force winds, pouring rain, and blowing sand, to hassel three kids (and arrest one) - just because they are Christian? Is that what Josh is claiming?
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If they were concerned about public safety, why were these people not escorted too? Why weren't the surfers or families?
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How do you know some weren't? Was somebody following the cops around all day?
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Even on a fine day they don't preach there [on the beach].
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Why not?
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Also, according to my Uncle and Auntie, who work as cops at the Gold Coast...
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Since your Aunt/Uncle work as Gold Coast cops, then they should know these two officers, right? Do these two have a history of targeting and 'manhandling' Christians? Perhaps you can ask your Aunt/Uncle what the two cops say happened, or they can read the cops' incident report.

-- posted by Migisi

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» Migisi - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by redback:
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The police in Queensland have a reputation for being a bit r/tough.
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Do they have need to be?
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But the loss of free speech...in a gale...seems a stretch to prove.
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And 'religious persecution' is a stretch to prove too, IMO.

-- posted by Migisi

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» redback - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by Migisi:

Do they have need to be?

We have State police to look after both city and country areas, unlike the USA. Each of the major States have had Commissions of Inquiry into their police forces so all should be pretty sensitive being caught via mobile phone, paparazzi etc etc doing the wrong thing..in public. And there's been a range of behaviours that mistrusting police is a natural reaction.

There are complaints about the increased 'move on' powers of the Qld police...which can now apply state-wide and not just at city "hotspots". There ARE reasons why new laws are approved. Police enforcement is not for undue negotiation nor majority approval...so being told to 'move on' when you don't want to and believe you have a RIGHT to stay...should lead to what?

And 'religious persecution' is a stretch to prove too, IMO.

Sorry...I agree. It has an element of CRY WOLF about it. Not to mention exaggeration. Do you think most claims of religious persecution are 6 metres tall? That might be a sight at the surf in Hawaii but...climate change prospects aside...on Queensland beaches...while you watch...and preach???

-- posted by redback

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» Migisi - Or Public Safety?

In response to Or Public Safety? posted by redback:
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so being told to 'move on' when you don't want to and believe you have a RIGHT to stay...should lead to what?
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A tricky call, to be sure. The question is - does one have the ~right~ to expose himself to harm? Should people who ignore evacuation orders issued due to life-threatening conditions be forcibly removed for their own safety? IMHO, an unreserved YES.
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From my personal experience, the problem arises ~after~ that person exercises his ~right~ to stay, but then expects public servants to rescue him from the risk he knowingly and intentionally took. This exposes those public servants to harm needlessly - which is NOT his ~right~ to do.
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The case in question here, as I understand it, is that the area was officially closed because of the potential for serious injury or loss of life. Under those circumstances, did he have a ~right~ to stay, and encourage others to stay by his preaching, thus exposing them to possible harm too? Some would say, yes, it was their choice to risk personal harm. Then I would say it should be the public servant's choice whether to rescue them, or tend to their resulting injuries (i.e. "they made their bed, now let them lay in it'). But they, or their family, would be first in line to sue if a civil servant made that choice. As a past public servant, I resented (and was angered by) the unnecessary harm I was exposed to because of the stupidity of others. Just my POV - from that other side of the coin.
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Do you think most claims of religious persecution are 6 metres tall?
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Some can be, but in this instance, I'd say it falls flat.
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That might be a sight at the surf in Hawaii but...climate change prospects aside...on Queensland beaches...while you watch...and preach???
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Makes me wonder... if they avoided preaching on the beach 'even on a fine day', why go to the 'beach front near Cavil Ave' (Surfers Paradise?) during a gale storm? (Google Satellite is awesome!)

-- posted by Migisi

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