Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - God and Evil

In response to God and Evil posted by Migisi:

Migisi,

God is not "off the moral hook." That's your phrase. Not mine. I don't say that God is "off the moral hook." God is responsible for creating Lucifer/Satan and for all the angels and all of humanity. And...God is responsible for giving us FREE WILL.

If, as a supervisor, I give my employee a choice to make, and the employee makes a choice which proves to have consequences, I bear some responsibility for that situation - since I delegated that choice. Likewise, God is at least partly culpable for giving humanity free will.

» Brian Tubbs - Now answer MY questions....

Migisi, you bring a lot of passion ("anger" may be a good word for it, frankly) to this issue. You are very zealous in accusing God of perpretating evil on the world. This is a recurring theme for you.

Yet, obviously, you did not listen to (or chose to dismiss) Ravi Zacharias' challenge about the nature of evil. This tells me you are not a practitioner of one of the "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" (Stephen Covey) - one of the habits being: "Seek first to understand, THEN to be understood."

Here's the question -- my question to you (and I'll paraphrase from Ravi Z., since you won't engage him)...

What is "Evil"?

That question, of course, spawns the following additional questions...

If there is "Evil," there must be "Good." There HAS to be Good. Otherwise, "Evil" has no meaning.

Yet if there's "Good" and "Evil," then by what measurement can we possibly determine what falls into what category? What's the objective measuring tool?

If "Good" and "Evil" are simply social constructs and/or sentiments derived from our personal feelings, then the WORST you can say about God is that He has hurt a lot of feelings and/or offended a lot of opinions.

There's no way you can credibly say He/She/It committed "Evil" in any kind of objective or meaningful sense.

» pink101 - A Cop Out

In response to God and Evil posted by BrianTubbs:
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"...God is responsible for giving us FREE WILL. ..... God is at least partly culpable for giving humanity free will."
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In a way I agree with that; but, it is a cop out.
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There is much, much, much more to free will and its consequentiality than the idea that God has given it to us.
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The French philosophers discussed the ideas of free will and predestination as free will and determinism. Some claimed that there can be no such thing as free will as a person's birth and socialization determines who it is that they are and are growing to be.
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So, in such a case, it is incumbent on us to recognize the facts as they are and to reach out to each other in such a way so that we all will be able to make better choices.
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I cannot blame my short comings on the fact that God gave me free will.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - God and Evil

In response to God and Evil posted by BrianTubbs:

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If, as a supervisor, I give my employee a choice to make, and the employee makes a choice which proves to have consequences, I bear some responsibility for that situation - since I delegated that choice.
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If the 'consequences' were injurious to the employee or another party, you might be found 'vicariously liable' if you failed to exercise 'duty of care'. Any of four could apply: negligent hiring, negligent retention, negligent supervision, and negligent training. If you failed to provide instruction which would've informed the employee of forseeable injurious consequences, you could be held wholly responsible.
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God is at least partly culpable for giving humanity free will.
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Partly? If God (alone) did give humanity free will, then he is ~entirely~ culpable (your word).
Culpable: deserving blame or censure as being wrong or evil or injurious; "blameworthy if not criminal behavior"; "censurable misconduct"; "culpable negligence" (source: WordReference)

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Culpability

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"If God (alone) did give humanity free will, then he is ~entirely~ culpable ..."
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Don't you think your statement is only true up to some point? Somewhere along the line, persons reflect on their past behavior and, as they reflect, they inform themselves that they had choices that may have been overlooked at the time of the actions in question. So, the next time some similar or related opportunity to choose is made available, they can make a choice outside the box. It a way, when we attribute culpability to a god for our free will, we are saying that free will is really predestined behavior.
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What do you have to say to that?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Culpability

In response to Culpability posted by pink101:
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Don't you think your statement is only true up to some point?
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If, as some contend, God is 'first cause' of all that is, then God is the 'first cause' of free-will. The Book says God created and planted the Tree of Knowledge (of Good and Evil). His first humans knew nothing of either until they partook of it. Hence, Man was not the 'first cause' of evil in the world. God was - by creating it, planting it within Man's reach, and giving Man the choice to indulge in it. As I see it, anyway.
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...persons reflect on their past behavior... they inform themselves that they had choices that may have been overlooked... So, the next time... they can make a choice outside the box.
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What you're describing, IMO, is life experience - which broadens and changes our range of choices. Wisdom (hopefully) through maturity (presumed).
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In a way, when we attribute culpability to a god for our free will, we are saying that free will is really predestined behavior.
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Allegedly, God created free-will and gave it to Man. God, being omniscient, foreknew how Man would use, misuse, and abuse the power - and the death and destruction it would cause. In a sense, God predestined Man to do both good and evil by giving Man the power of choice.
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I love this poem:
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"But to every mind there openeth,
A way, and way, and away,
A high soul climbs the highway,
And the low soul gropes the low,
And in between on the misty flats,
The rest drift to and fro.
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But to every man there openeth,
A high way and a low,
And every mind decideth,
The way his soul shall go.
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One ship sails East,
And another West,
By the self-same winds that blow,
'Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales,
That tells the way we go.
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Like the winds of the sea
Are the waves of time,
As we journey along through life,
'Tis the set of the soul,
That determines the goal,
And not the calm or the strife."
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('Tis the Set of the Sail -- or -- One Ship Sails East,
Ella Wheeler Wilcox 1916)

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Culpability

In response to Culpability posted by Migisi:

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I guess that case can be made; but, when it is, doesn't it mean that we are all just carrying out a plan that was decided before humanity was even created? I mean as far as churched doctrine is concerned.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Deep waters

In response to Culpability posted by Migisi:

To coin a phrase I know Pink has used, we are in "deep waters" on this topic.

Migisi, I agree with you that the omnipotent and omniscient nature of God along with the doctrine of the sovereignty of God (which virtually all Christians - Catholic and Protestant - embrace) requires that we acknowledge God is ultimately responsible for the presence of evil in the universe.

I use the word "ultimately" deliberately, since I don't think it's fair to say that God is exclusively responsible for evil. And that is apparently where we differ.

Whether the Garden of Eden is figurative or literal (I believe it is both), God told Adam and Eve what the consequences would be if they partook of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It's clear, Migisi, that you feel that God should have kept the Tree out of the Garden, and left Adam and Eve (and their offspring - the entire human race) in a world that would have been perfect and innocent and idyllic.

That God did NOT do this (that He gave them the opportunity to sin and thus inherit a sin nature and a capacity to do evil - a capacity that we've now seen in the Inquisition, the Holocaust, 9/11, child rape, torture, murder, etc., etc., etc) is what has led you (it seems) to reject Him.

I would say that the choice you are now exercising to reject God is one that had no meaning or validity prior to Adam and Eve falling into sin. Without the Tree in the Garden, there was no choice for Adam and Eve to make, other than to exist in a deterministic paradise.

Now, don't get lost in the Garden. Whether it's literal or metaphorical (again, I believe it is both), the story is in Genesis to show us how humanity chose to follow its own course rather than abide by the terms laid down by God. Now, each and every human being has to make an individual choice - to go his or her own way or to embrace God as their Lord. I've made mine. And you've made yours.

» Migisi - Deep waters

In response to Deep waters posted by BrianTubbs:

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God told Adam and Eve what the consequences would be if they partook of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
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God told them they'd die. Since death didn't exist in the Garden (allegedly), and they had no knowledge (no apple) yet of what death was or meant for them, was the consequence understandable to them? I think not.
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It's clear, Migisi, that you feel that God should have kept the Tree out of the Garden, and left Adam and Eve (and their offspring - the entire human race) in a world that would have been perfect and innocent and idyllic.
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Isn't that precisely what believers dream of, and where they wish to return after death? Back to that perfect, innocent, idyllic life with God in a paradise (with loved ones and pets, of course)? Would you trade in your free-will for life with God in paradise?
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...is what has led you (it seems) to reject Him.
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I don't reject GOD... the ONE. I reject the Bible God, and the deification of mortal men.
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Dinner's on. Be back later...

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Dinner

In response to Deep waters posted by Migisi:

Dinner's on. Be back later...

And you didn't invite me? I'm hurt.

For next time, I like shrimp, lobster, steak, and crab legs.