Protestantism

» Migisi - languages

In response to a href="http://protestantism.suite101.com/discus...
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There's no disputing that the OT Bible's entire focus is on the history/legends of the Hebrews/Israelites. It's ~their~ scripture. It's not surprising to me to find a story/legend rewritten and retold more than once in the book by different authors, since the Bible is a ~collection~ of writings.
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Chapter 10 explains the origin of languages. Noah's clans dispersed and had/developed different languages. It's pretty straightforward stuff. No supernatural force attributed to language differences like we find in the Babel story.
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Babel is simply the Hebrew's ~mythical~ legend explaining the origin of languages - a story very similar to the ancient Sumerian legend Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta. Nimrod is substituted for Enmer the Hunter, king of Uruk, who builds the first temple to the Sumerian god Eridu, and prays for a unifying single language.
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Seems just about every culture has it own mythical explanation for languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_or...
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The Sumerians inhabited various city-states, each centered around a temple (ziggurat). Archeologists have found the ruins of several in different parts of what was ancient Babylonia. Sumerians believed that a god owned each city. They worshipped Nammu the Mother Goddess, Ishtar or Inanna the goddess of love, Enlil the god of the wind, and Marduk the god of creation and thunder. Some of their major cities included Eridu, Kish, Uruk and Ur.
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Who built these city temple towers? The Sumerians used domestic slaves, and foreign slaves they'd captured - who spoke different languages. And, like other major cultural and commerce hubs, Babylon would've attracted foreign-speaking traders. Slaves and traders certainly would've contributed to the language confusion and confounding of communication.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - First brick layers

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
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The first stone/brick masons, Pink!
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The brick was made from river clay, which was the only abundant material in the region. Stone wasn't that readily available. The only wood in the region were Palm trees - not suitable for construction. The tar was asphalt (natural asphalt (bitumen) pits found in and around the Dead Sea, and in the valley of Siddim - Read Gen 14:10) The bricks were sun-baked. Later, kilns were developed to bake the clay.
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Asphalt from the Dead Sea
http://www.netours.com/jrs/2003/Various-...
"In the ancient Middle East, natural asphalt deposits were used for mortar between bricks and stones, ship caulking, and waterproofing [especially the temples]. The Persian word for asphalt is mumiya, which may be related to the English word mummy. Asphalt was also used by ancient Egyptians to embalm mummies.
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"In these accumulations of bitumen at the South end of the Ghor we probably have the incentive which led the Babylonians under Amraphel and Chedorlaomer to make such long expeditions for the sake of conquering the region and holding it under their power. Bitumen was much in demand in Babylonia."

-- posted by Migisi

» redback - languages

In response to languages posted by Migisi:

"Seems just about every culture has it own mythical explanation for languages."

When I was in a boys' home...6 years through to the end of 1962...we developed our own tribal language as a means of survival almost. We had no real privacy and a uniformed Salvation Army officer carrying a cane was the 'enemy' or at best an ambiguous 'friend'. Our language evolved to keep them apart from us. But mum also had problems with it. At work, it's called jargon and eg computer geeks can carry on full conversations without being understood by outsiders.

Maybe Noah's mob who apparently were the forerunners of all the warring tribes that exist today, developed their own language for self preservation? In the books I referred to elsewhere, an earthquake may permanently separate peoples so language develops differently if the 'scholar' dies or is on the other side of the chasm.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - languages

In response to languages posted by redback:

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I think a case can be made to show that we're looking at a metaphorical explanation of the invention and further development of language in the early pages of Genesis.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - languages

In response to languages posted by redback:
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My kids talk a different language amongst themselves using terms and phrases I don't understand. A simple generational difference - a 'kid code'? They do translate for me when I put on my 'what?' face.
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We have a lot of ethnic dialects here i.e. 'ebonics' and 'rap crap'. Geographical lingos too, like 'valley talk' on the west coast. And Spanish has infiltrated the retail market so heavily that I have no clue what products the fast food restaurants offer without a picture menu.
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And I do not understand puter 'geek speak'. I need a dictionary for most blog and text messaging acronyms. (I've had to resort to an OZ slanguage dictionary on several occasions to understand you too. )
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I often feel like I'm living in modern day Babel - a foreigner in my own land.
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Back in the day, I studied 'Old English' in school, and learned to read and write it (with a feather quill and ink well, mind you). Old English is an excellent example of how a language developed -- assimilating words into a dialect from languages a people came in contact with.

-- posted by Migisi

» redback - languages

In response to languages posted by Migisi:

As young boys, we all hung out for our turn with a pair of knockers and "keeping nicky" WAS about self preservation.

Given there is allegedly nothing new under the sun, methinks the linguistic rules for adaptive language behaviour...is inbuilt.

Fountain pens and ink wells for me. We couldn't afford feather quill.

-- posted by redback

» redback - languages

In response to languages posted by pink101:

" think a case can be made to show that we're looking at a metaphorical explanation of the invention and further development of language in the early pages of Genesis."

And it seems to me...also entrenching fear-based behaviour. Wasn't this also about disobedience? "you all want to group together like scared little half drowned rats when I wanted you instead to scatter to the 4 winds and re-populate the Earth...and build smaller, less ostentatious temples everywhere." Adam and Eve would have been totally lost if it was up to them. i mean what part of 'don't eat the apple' couldn't they understand?

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - "Don't Eat The Apple"

In response to languages posted by redback:
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I think, "don't eat the apple," is a grossly misrepresented idea of the injunction against tasting the fruit of the tree that provides humanity with the knowledge of good and evil. And, puts a focus on the literal versus allegoric understandings of what is being referenced.
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So it is with Noah's Ark, the Flood, and the Tower of Babel.
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This is a MAJOR problem with religionism which tends toward a literal acceptance of the Bible as the Revealed Word of God who--Himself--could never speak in terms that are not plain and directly to the point. If the Bible speaks of a tree, it means just that--a real tree that grows and in whose branches birds come to nest. It never would have anything to do with a field of study or a school of knowledge. At least, that is the way the biblicists would have it. So, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil CANNOT be seen as the representation of legalism--which, in itself, does seem to have a great deal to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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The problem with allegory is that different people are, thereby, given the authority to interpret scripture according to their individual understandings and that is VERBOTEN to the religionist mind set which depends so strongly on a single authoritarian view of scripture.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - languages

In response to languages posted by redback:

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We couldn't afford feather quill.
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What... no chickens in OZ barnyards?

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Vs 4 - Build a city and a name

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4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
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Insert the word 'god' for the word 'name' above... "Let us make a god for ourselves". The LORD said he is a jealous god....
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5).
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Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin
Folio 109a
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/s...
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(quote)
"THE GENERATION OF THE DISPERSION HAVE NO PORTION IN THE WORLD TO COME etc.
"What did they do? - The scholars of R. Shila taught: They said, 'Let us build a tower, ascend to heaven, and cleave it with axes, that its waters might gush forth.' In the West [sc. Palestine academies] 2 they laughed at this: If so, they should have built it on a mountain! 3 [and not in a valley]
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"R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar said: They split up into three parties. One said, 'Let us ascend and dwell there;' the second, 'Let us ascend and serve idols;' and the third said, 'Let us ascend and wage war [with God].' The party which proposed, 'Let us ascend, and dwell there' - the Lord scattered them: the one that said, 'Let us ascend and wage war' were turned to apes, spirits, devils, and night-demons; whilst as for the party which said, 'Let us ascend and serve idols' - 'for there the Lord did confound the language of all the earth.'4
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"It has been taught. R. Nathan said: They were all bent on idolatry. [For] here it is written, let us make us a name;5 whilst elsewhere it is written, and make no mention of the name of other gods:6 just as there idolatry is meant, so here too. R. Jonathan said: A third of the tower was burnt, a third sunk [into the earth], and a third is still standing. 7[Borsippa Tower near Babylon] Rab said: The atmosphere of the tower causes forgetfulness. R. Joseph said: Babylon and Borsif 8 [a city near Borsippa, known for its Chaldean astrologers] are evil omens for the Torah. 9 [Because one's learning is soon forgotten there.] What is the meaning of Borsif? - R. Assi said: An empty [shafi] pit [bor]. 10 [i.e., a pit emptied of its waters - a place where all knowledge is forgotten.]" (end)
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Neat stuff from the Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin, no?

-- posted by Migisi