Protestantism

» GodChsr - Sabbatarianism and The Law

I have a friend here at work. He is a Christian. It also turns out that he's Seventh Day Adventist.

I visited his church and I'd be more than willing to discuss that later but for now I have a big hurdle to cross.

Sabbatarianism... Is it valid?
I have started to study this (on my own with no help from this friend, although prompted by his claims) and conclusively believe the following concerning the Sabbath:
1. The Sabbath is indeed a Saturday
2. The Sabbath was never nullified by the cross
3. The early church, including Jesus recognized the Sabbath as being Holy and set apart.

I know those statements may very well strike up some debate... ok.

I'll start this off then: Does Sabbatarianism mean that the Law is still binding IN THAT it is the means for salvation? I don't think so. I simply believe (at this point) that the Law is still intact. The Bible is very clear that the the 'Law' never had the means to save men from sins, so Sabbatarianism does not lend itself to being Salvation by works, it is simply an act of obedience, which is worked out within our Salvation.

I think it would be ignorant for anyone to claim that "People who don't keep the Sabbath Holy go to Hell", and ultimately thats the idea I got from the SDA church doctrine.
I do on the other hand believe there is an issue of obedience that needs to be recognized.

So that puts the burden of proof where?
If any of you have studied debate of similar then you know that the burden of proof is in the hands of the Non-Sabbatarian. It is 'your' job to show scripturally where the Sabbath was 'nailed to the cross'.

Thank You for listening and I hope you engage! =)

-- posted by GodChsr

» Brian Tubbs - Sabbatarianism and The Law

In response to Sabbatarianism and The Law posted by GodChsr:

Two quick points...

First, the Law - as in the Mosaic Law - applied ONLY to the Jews. When the Jewish Christians tried to impose the mosaic law onto the Gentile converts, they were rebuked for doing so by Peter (to some extent) and Paul (to a GREAT extent). So, even IF Jewish Christians feel the need to keep the Sabbath to Saturday, Gentile Christians are under no such obligation.

Second, a Christian's understanding of the Law and the Old Testament generally is very different from a Jewish non-Christian's perspective. Since Christians widely believe that the Old Testament points to Christ, and then Christ's coming FULFILLS the Old Testament Law, then Jesus is indeed the "Lord of the Sabbath" (as he declares himself to be in the Gospels). So...for the church (including Jewish Christians) to shift the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to honor the resurrection of the "Lord of the Sabbath" is very reasonable and commendable.

» GodChsr - Sabbatarianism and The Law

In response to Sabbatarianism and The Law posted by BrianTubbs:

I'll do my best to use your words in Italics:

First, the Law - as in the Mosaic Law - applied ONLY to the Jews. When the Jewish Christians tried to impose the mosaic law onto the Gentile converts, they were rebuked for doing so by Peter (to some extent) and Paul (to a GREAT extent). So, even IF Jewish Christians feel the need to keep the Sabbath to Saturday, Gentile Christians are under no such obligation.

I'll need to see some evidence for your claim here because I searched HOPING to find what you are claiming and I could not. I am not 'calling you out' but I am hoping you have found something I haven't.

Second, a Christian's understanding of the Law and the Old Testament generally is very different from a Jewish non-Christian's perspective. Since Christians widely believe that the Old Testament points to Christ, and then Christ's coming FULFILLS the Old Testament Law, then Jesus is indeed the "Lord of the Sabbath" (as he declares himself to be in the Gospels). So...for the church (including Jewish Christians) to shift the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to honor the resurrection of the "Lord of the Sabbath" is very reasonable and commendable.

I don't think the first half of that paragraph says much about the Sabbath but to address your claim as to WHY Christians go on Sunday... Well historically that doesn't match up because it wasn't for several Hundred years after the death of Christ that a Sunday 'Sabbath' was present. If Christ's resurrection was the reason should it not have been more immediate?

I think it is much more likely that Pagan influence led to the Sunday worship (IE: Catholic integration of Sun worshipers)

That last point is probably more speculation on ALL parts but I thought I'd add my thoughts.

-- posted by GodChsr

» GodChsr - Sabbatarianism and The Law

In response to Sabbatarianism and The Law posted by BrianTubbs:

Sorry I forgot to respond to one point
Since Christians widely believe that the Old Testament points to Christ, and then Christ's coming FULFILLS the Old Testament Law

I agree. Christ fulfilled the Law just as you claim because the Law could not be perfectly observed by men. I concur, no disagreement there.
I think that deals more with the Law and Salvation... That's not the issue. The question is should we disreguard the Law simply because of Christ's death? (I know you know Paul said that himself) BY NO MEANS. So the REAL question is, does the Sabbath not count as part of the Law?

-- posted by GodChsr

» Brian Tubbs - Gentiles and the Mosaic Law

In response to Sabbatarianism and The Law posted by GodChsr:

All peoples (Jew and Gentile) are accountable to God and His standards. And all peoples have God's moral law written in their hearts, as Paul makes clear in Romans 1-2. This, I believe, is the basis of the common moral impulse shared by all humans. C.S. Lewis wrote a lot about this in Mere Christianity.

So, in that sense, we are ALL accountable to God's laws or to His moral precepts.

However, God gave His Law a specific application via the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. When one reads the Torah (particularly the books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy), it's pretty clear that God is articulating special instructions to the children of Israel -- the people whom He had set apart for a special relationship and work.

Therefore, the moral principles evident in the mosaic code are of course applicable to us today (Jew and Gentile). We need to honor our parents, not steal, etc. But specific commands, such as observing the Jewish feasts, making animal sacrifices, honoring the Sabbath (Saturday), etc. fall in that specific category - one applicable to the Jewish people of that day.

» Brian Tubbs - Parts of the Law

More on the Law...

http://www.carmical.net/articles/moses.h...

» pink101 - Parts of the Law

In response to Parts of the Law posted by BrianTubbs:
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I live in Southwestern Michigan just 25 miles from Battle Creek where Seventh Day Adventists got a huge boost from the Kellogg fortune, or was it the Post fortunes--the wife attended an Adventist church where she dumped enormous amounts of money. There is even a Seventh Day Baptist church over there. From what I hear, most protestant churches hold much more against Adventists than their choice regarding the "lord's" day. They do a BIG business with the illegal immigrants where Mexicans get their Gospel in Spanish. And, we have major community charities in the name of the Adventists.
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From what I know they built their beliefs on the revelations made to a saintly prophetess by the name of Ellen White (?) who is still revered as having had special knowledge direct from the Holy Spirit--cultish?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Sabbatarianism and The Law

In response to Sabbatarianism and The Law posted by GodChsr:
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Hi Stephen. You might be interested in reading this, from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I think it addresses some of your questions.
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SABBATH AND SUNDAY
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.j...
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Teaser:
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"A brief consideration is desirable as to why and when the keeping of the seventh day [Saturday] as the Sabbath ceased among Christian churches. That Jesus and his disciples kept the seventh day, and without vital departures from Pharisaic usages, is indisputable. The question of Sabbath observance first became acute under Paul, with the rise of the non-Jewish Christian communities. The Petrine, or Judæo-Christian, party insisted on rigid adherence to the Jewish law. It scorned the looser practises of the converts from without Israel.... Paul protests against judging the piety of the neophytes "in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast-day . . . or a Sabbath-day" (cites sources). He protests with greater bitterness in Gal. iv. 9-11, where observance of days is denounced as a return to the "weak and beggarly elements." In Rom. xiv. 5 et seq. it is assumed that whether one day or another is distinguished, or whether all are regarded as equally sacred, is a matter of indifference: every man must decide for himself. Thus while the Petrine partizans continued to assemble for worship on the Sabbath (cites sources), in non-Jewish Christian circles the first day of the week [Sunday] came to be marked by longer worship than usual and by collections of gifts (cites sources)."
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Interesting info in these subsections too:
Two Sabbaths Kept in the Second Century,
First Sunday Law, 321,
Jewish Attitude Toward Sunday.

-- posted by Migisi