Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Locking the Barn Door ...

In response to Locking the Barn Door ... posted by Migisi:
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The only church shooting in Vermont did not fit the pattern of the others. On 2 December 2001, man brandishing a knife walked into the Brattleboro Unitarian Universalist Church. No congregants were killed; the man was killed by local police -- and there was huge public outcry over the police's actions. The man was NOT a member of that church, and as far as anyone knows, had never entered the building before. The states' attorney general ruled the shooting justified; this was not a popular ruling.
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Here's one story on the events:
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http://www.justiceforwoody.net/media/art...
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The family of the man killed sued the town on the grounds that the police used excessive force, and won:
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http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont...
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This story gives more background on the incident, and an indication of public sentiment. It also gives further links for more information, if you're interested:
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http://www.flybynews.com/cgi-local/newsp...
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Although I can't say for sure what's happening in the southern part of the state (where Brattleboro is), I know that in my part of Vermont this incident did not lead to any calls to lock the churches, or hire armed guards, during the services. As you will note in the stories given in the links, most of the sympathy was with the perpetrator. I'm not drawing any major inferences from this, but I think it * might* point to different responses than those you mentioned (e.g., suing the church).
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Locking the Barn Door ...

In response to Locking the Barn Door ... posted by paper_turtle:

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Quoted from your last link:
"or why they didn't subdue Woodward with the pepper spray they carry, or just tackle him."
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Exactly!! Subdue and Restrain is what ~professional~ officers are trained to do in cases like this. If what I'm reading is true, this is definitely a case of wrongful death.
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Again, from your link:
"He did tell us he was afraid of the police and afraid if they caught him they'd kill him," Hunt said. "He held a small pocketknife and held it against his right eye and said that rather than being captured he'd kill himself."
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Was this just a paranoid delusion talking, or had he done something that caused him to want santuary in the church? If he hadn't been shot to death, maybe the cops could've discovered why he was so afraid to be captured and killed.
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Clearly, the Brattleboro Police Department still has major problems with excessive force:
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Brattleboro police chief to investigate Tasering
July 26, 2007
http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.d...
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Frankly, a police chief investigating his own department is ridiculous. The State's Attorney should be investigating the entire force, from top to bottom.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Church as Armed Fortress

In response to Luke and John posted by paper_turtle:

A church which has become an armed fortress is saying:

I agree, and have said so in previous postings. I'm not endorsing the idea that a church have moats and drawbridges, archers in turret towers, etc. But, we DO live in a day and age where buildings have to undergo certain security procedures and protocols.

+++ we have no faith in the power of God

I have faith in God's power, and I also recognize the responsibility that God has given us. I believe God has the power to feed me, but that doesn't mean I will sit back and just wait for manna to drop from heaven.

+++ we are afraid to die

Paper Turtle, several years ago, when I was living and working in the Washington, DC area, there was the sniper scare. Do you remember the news coverage? I was a teacher at the time - at a church-run school. We moved all P.E. classes and recess times INDOORS until the snipers were caught. There had been a shooting or two at schools in the area.

I'm confident of where I'm going when I die - and I feel the same about my wife and children. But I'm still going to take measures to protect my family! And, as a teacher, I'm going to take measures to protect the children under my care. And, as a pastor, I'm going to do what I can to protect my congregation.

+++ we do not believe with God all things are possible

This is emotional exaggeration. If I take precautionary measures to protect myself, that does NOT mean I am discounting God's power or providence. I'm simply being responsible. God does call us to be good stewards.

+++ we care more about our own safety than we care about anything else; we are of more value than you are

Again, an exaggeration. See comments above.

» Brian Tubbs - Scary, Migisi

In response to Locking the Barn Door ... posted by Migisi:

I find myself agreeing with you, at least for the most part.

» Brian Tubbs - Pastor Boyd

Based on what I've read and seen, I think Pastor Boyd, the security officer, and New Life handled things the appropriate way.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorad...

» Migisi - Scary, Migisi

In response to Scary, Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:

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The disciples gathered together twice behind locked doors for fear of the Jews. (Jn 20: 19 and 26) Even they - men of great faith - locked their doors to protect themselves.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Angry young man

In response to Pastor Boyd posted by BrianTubbs:
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http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Nationa...
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(quote)
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"The gunman was identified as Matthew Murray, 24, who was home-schooled in what a friend said was a deeply religious Christian household. Murray's father is a neurologist and a leading multiple sclerosis researcher.
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"Matthew Murray lived there along with a brother, Christopher, 21, a student at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla.
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"A neighbor, Cody Askeland, 19, said the brothers were home-schooled, describing the whole family as "very, very religious."
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"Christopher studied for a semester at Colorado Christian University before transferring to Oral Roberts, said Ronald Rex, dean of admissions and marketing at Colorado Christian. He said Matthew Murray had been in contact with school officials this summer about attending the school but decided he wasn't interested because he thought the school was too expensive.
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"Police said Murray's only previous brush with the law was a traffic ticket earlier this year." (end)
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Matthew Murray's Nightmare of Christianity
Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:33:59 PM
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/200...
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(quote)
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"Turns out our gunman was a fan of Cradle of Filth and caught the black metal band's show at the Fillmore October 16. In doing so he was defying a childhood and adolescence in which access to all popular media, even Christian music, was severely restricted. Murray writes at length about how his parents considered The Simpsons to be "a very evil and satanic TV show" and ultimately cut off all broadcast channels in the home, using the television just for inspirational videos. "Me, I found a New Law to live by," he wrote. "I don't have to be abused nor submit to these liars and their lies nor do I have to be afraid of this make-believe hell and false theory of salvation."
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"The writings suggest Murray struggled with depression and was seeing a therapist. (He refers to taking Prozac for eight months.) Although New Life officials have denied that he had any connection to their organization, he claims that Ted Haggard was his mother's "favorite pastor," and one of his poems exhorts, "bow down to a lying clergy of sodomy" - a Haggard reference, to be sure." (end)
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Read the angry young man's own online postings here:
http://p223.ezboard.com/nghtmrchld26s-po...

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Angry young man

In response to Angry young man posted by Migisi:

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Such sad and angry children.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Church as Armed Fortress

In response to Church as Armed Fortress posted by BrianTubbs:

I think you missed a lot of the substance of my post on Luke and John.

And what you responded to represents what I have heard people outside of church saying. Whether or not you see them as "emotional axaggerations" I think a church needs to consider how others outside of the church are saying. We ARE representatives of Jesus in the world. We have a responsibility to be certain we are sending the right message through our behavior.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - To Paper Turtle

In response to Church as Armed Fortress posted by paper_turtle:

PT, I agree with you on TWO points (at least two - maybe more). They are:

1) Christians need to put their trust in God, submit to His will, and live according to Jesus' example

***I'm a pastor, so how can I possibly disagree with you on that?

2) Churches need to consider how their actions and decisions impact their testimony for the Lord

On the above points, I agree with you.

We disagree on our understanding of Jesus' discussion of the swords. Not completely, I might add, but we do disagree on it.

And we disagree on the whole pacifism thing. I believe there ARE times in which it's appropriate and justified to engage in violence. The security guard shooting the assailant is such a time.

NEVERTHELESS...

I will add one more area of agreement, and this is a biggee!

No one should be HAPPY or self-satisfied about the outcome in Colorado. By that, I mean that no one should rejoice in the death of that tormented young man. I believe the security guard (Assam) was justified to shoot him, but it's not something that we should be cheering. It's a sad tragedy all around.

The danger is that sometimes we turn quickly to violence to solve our problems, without looking deeply into the CAUSE of those problems. I do NOT believe the YWAM or New Life are in any way responsible for what that young man did, BUT...

Churches need to take stock of this kind of situation and re-double their efforts to reach out to young people. This, the mall shooting, the VA Tech shootings, have caused me to get really PASSIONATE about having a caring, loving, dynamic youth ministry at our church! There are so many young people out there in emotionally and psychologically desperate situations - and they lack a moral compass and a safe, secure place to turn for help. We need to do our part to reach those people.

So....though we disagree on some things, Paper Turtle, I think we agree on the important stuff.