Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - responding to GodChar

In response to my response posted by GodChsr:

I believe the doors should remain unlocked.

When the people are gathering for worship, I agree. I didn't say otherwise.

There is no reason why a church should mimick the way the Government opperates.

As a stand-alone sentence, I don't like this. There are going to be things that the church does, which are similar to the way restaurants operate. Such as bathroom facilities. So, yes, churches and government buildings are going to do some things similarly. As are churches and businesses. Churches and relief agencies. Churches and just about any other entity you can think of. A church is made up of people, after all.

In fact I tend to believe that armed gunmen protecting a church would be more likely to test the will of the crazies out there. I think they'd choose the church with armed guards!

Do you have any basis for this statement? The shootings of late (including the Virginia Tech tragedy and the mall tragedy) involved the shooting of innocent, UN-armed people.

Who knows how many more people this person would have killed had it NOT been for the armed security volunteer who took care of business. And appropriately so, I might add.

A peaceful approach typically gets a peaceful response.

Tell that to the victims of Virginia Tech.

In the rare and unusual instance that people are innocently murdered at church we should mourn their loss....

Agreed

... and respond peacefully with open arms.

Please elaborate - and be specific

I can only protect my family the best that I can....

Of course, but we therefore need to make sure that we are INDEED protecting our families as BEST we can

... but at some point we have to simply trust God when our human means can not see the unseen evil in this world.

But we DO see much of the evil in this world, and we can and should take measures to protect ourselves - again, as BEST we can. Just as Nehemiah armed the workers at the Jerusalem wall.

It is God who created me and it is God who will carry me away regaurdless of the time or place.

I agree, but this is often used as a cop-out. We are not to be fatalists. I strongly reject the "What will be, will be" mentality. We bear some responsibility for the way things turn out. And the Bible makes clear that we are held accountable for our decisions, actions, etc. So, while I agree with you (and I truly do agree with you), I still must do what I can to provide for the safety and security of those I care about and those I'm responsible for.

» paper_turtle - Locking the barn door . . .

In response to a spiritual look... posted by Migisi:

duplicate post--sorry

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Locking the Barn Door ...

.
First of all, thanks, Migs, I DID enjoy that article.
.
I wrote:
BUT my friend's church is locking up while people are inside gathered for worship.
.
In post #9 Migisi responded:
What's the point - other than giving people a false sense of security? The perpetrator may have entered the building with the churchgoers and be inside already -- as was the case in the first CO shooting incident. Are the churches going to frisk everyone before services, a bake sale, or Bingo?
.
. . . In school shootings, it's usually not an outsider, but most often a student (someone who's ~supposed~ to be there) who is the perpetrator.
.
.
In Post # 14 Phil wrote:
.
So, I see what you're addressing here as an example of how this movement is having an affect in our society. Imagine--armed guards standing at the doors of any church. The idea is an oxymoron. Of course, Migisi is right in her act of taking her hat off to the guard in this most recent case of violent outbreak. And, so are you in your position. Therein lies the problem of confusion, doesn't it?
.
.
According to an AP report which I read here:
http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/na...
.
The perpetrator in the Colorado shootings was also someone who was "supposed" to be there. Seems like a classic example of locking the barn door after the cows have escaped. And it returns me to what I said earlier about the best defense being looking within to find the lost among us and do our best to minister to them in a way which leads them to wholeness.
.
As I see it, merely hiring armed guards implies giving up - or not even trying in the first place. It relieves us of the hard work of examining what WE might have done to cause someone to choose hatred and violence. And it IS a false sense of security.
.
I don't see any real confusion. What I see is a failure to look the issue square in the face and assume responsibility for our actions.
.
.
peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Luke and John

In response to Jesus and protection posted by BrianTubbs:
.
I wrote:
Did Jesus hire bodyguards when he knew his life was in danger?
.
In post #19 Brian responded:
No, but he did encourage his disciples to carry swords (Luke 22).
.
.
Well, as I read the passage to which you're referring, I don't think its quite so clear-cut.
.
.
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.
.
36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors' [Isaiah 53:12; NEB reads "outlaws"]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
.
38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.
.
.
49 When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
.
51 But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.
.
52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs?
.
53Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour-when darkness reigns."
.
.
First of all, Jesus makes a clear distinction between the times when the disciples were sent forth to teach and heal, and the hour at hand. Then, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says that is enough. It seems clear to me that Jesus was after giving the disciples the **appearance** of being protected (to symbolize spiritual protection). My inference is backed up in the incident with the ear of the high priest's servant. The disciple who cut off the ear did not wait for Jesus to answer, and in response, Jesus says, "Don't do that again!" In vs 52 Jesus implies he is not armed, or he would not have asked the guards "Am I leading a rebellion and why do you have arms?"
.
Jesus did not instruct all of his disciples to arm themselves, and he is quite clear in stressing that this particular moment is an "hour of darkness." Ordinary worshippers on Sunday morning are not in danger of being crucified for their beliefs, and this hour is no darker than any other. We are charged to be like *** Jesus *** who was not armed.
.
.
I wrote:
Did he use force when he was arrested?
.
Brian responded:
According to the Gospel of John, when he spoke his name, the party that came to arrest him were thrown back to the ground. Otherwise, no.
.
.
"When [Jesus] said, 'I am he' they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:6)
.
I consulted 6 different translations of this passage. All of them said "fell" rather than "thrown." And "fell" could be seen as an indication that they landed on the ground out of fear or awe rather than because God pushed them.
.
A Quaker would point to this passage as an illustration of the power of non-violent action. Jesus does not brandish a sword. He does not threaten or inveigh against them. He simply stands firm and speaks the truth.
.
.
.
Brian, Post # 20:
Churches need to take steps to provide for the protection of the people who come to worship with them. In some cases, that will require additional measures, which were not needed in years past (but, unfortunately, ARE needed today).
.
At the same time, churches must convey the love of Christ to those in their surrounding communities. If they wall themselves in or turn themselves into imposing, armed citadels, it's obviously very difficult to do that.
It's a balance.
.
Brian, post #22
I think it's important to note that the church is the people, and not the building.
So, when a church building is locked, that's what is locked - the building. Not the church.
.
Obviously, locking the building DURING worship time in a way that excludes people from coming in is NOT something I endorse. But locking the building at OTHER times - such as late at night to protect against vandalism, robbery, assault on staff working late, etc. That's another matter. Prudence is justified.
.
.
I refer you to what I said in "Locking ..." The perpetrators of such violent acts are very (perhaps MOST) often members of the group they attack. Churches need to look at why this is -- instead of hiding behind false security.
.
It may be just the **church** which is locked, but those on the outside tend not to make that distinction. They see church and congregation as synonymous. They look at what a church does as indicative of how its individual members think/feel/believe/behave. A church which has become an armed fortress is saying:
.
+++ we have no faith in the power of God
+++ we are afraid to die
+++ we do not believe with God all things are possible
+++ we care more about our own safety than we care about anything else; we are of more value than you are
.
.
peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - The Larger Issue

In response to Luke and John posted by paper_turtle:
.
This instance of one or two churches locking the doors once the services have started is not the main issue. Of course, the members of those churches didn't just decide to lock their doors or to position guards for no reason at all. Something motivated them to do that.
.
But, the larger issue deals with the nature of our society in which there is so much violence. I addressed that up above where I pointed to our national leaders as being responsible for the recent increase in violence we are experiencing in our society. Violence begets violence. Bring up a child in a violent environment and that child will express violence as it circulates in society.
.
I think there is an excellent argument for churches that have previously locked their doors to unlock them now as a statement in favor of a non-violent society. Too dang much violence in our world in the name of one god or another. Perhaps Christian church groups can begin to withdraw their support of the drunken and swaggering behavior of America's "christian" leadership in its drive for war against the infidels of the Middle East. What a sick joke we live when we espouse presidential candidates based on their lust for war and belief in Christian principles. We know enough about politicians to know they will do whatever it takes to get into the seats of power..
.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - The Larger Issue

In response to The Larger Issue posted by pink101:

As I discovered on the message board where my friend posted her message, its not just one or two churches--its a whole lot of them, and the members of those churches (at least those reporting locked doors) don't seem to have a problem with it.

I agree, there is too much violence in our world. But then, I've been a pacifist for a very long time.

And while you address it as a "larger" issue I would suggest that (as with the locked church doors) we need to begin our exploration by looking within. Where do we, as individuals, contribute to the atmosphere of violence (either directly or indirectly)? Quakers say the path to peace begins with me. If I do not walk in peace, if I do not speak peace, think peace, then I cannot expect to see peace increase in the world.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Lighting Candles

In response to The Larger Issue posted by paper_turtle:

.
You have always been lighting candles, Sister Turtle.
.
The darkness is out there and there are more than enough people to curse it.
.

.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Lighting Candles

In response to Lighting Candles posted by pink101:

Pink, that's about the nicest thing anybody's said to me. Thanks.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Locking the Barn Door ...

In response to Locking the Barn Door ... posted by paper_turtle:
.
The perpetrator in the Colorado shootings was also someone who was "supposed" to be there. Seems like a classic example of locking the barn door after the cows have escaped.
.
Agree. As I suggested, locking church doors only offers a false sense of security. Most school doors are locked now - even tho' most school shooters have been students. But let's say the churches did nothing in response. No locks and no security officers. Imagine the law suits should another shooting happen (copy cats) - victim's families holding the church responsible for not taking steps to insure public safety. Yeah, I know it's unfair, but grievers blame everyone for their loss - not just the perpetrator. And some might see the opportunity to make an easy buck off wealthy megachurches.
.
And it returns me to what I said earlier about the best defense being looking within to find the lost among us and do our best to minister to them in a way which leads them to wholeness.
.
I don't disagree with that approach at all. That is, IF one can identify the 'lost among us' - and can do anything for them.
.
Here's what Murray wrote between shootings. "You christians brought this on yourselves. I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world." http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/14820026... If you compare this with writings of other shooters, it's typical of a manic episode (often caused by meds, as I've mentioned).
.
I don't think Murray's rampage was a random act at all. Murray had been thrown out of the 'Youth With A Mission' (YWAM) at the New Life Church's training facility. Perhaps he'd originally sought help from them before, and had been ignored or rejected? IMO, Murray was emotionally hurt by them, and for someone who's already unstable, hurt turns to rage. Two of the Church victims (sisters) were involved with YWAM. It's likely Murray knew they and other YWAM people would be attending services at the church that day, and he went looking for them. That's how I see it going down - with the limited info I've heard.
.
As I see it, merely hiring armed guards implies giving up - or not even trying in the first place. It relieves us of the hard work of examining what WE might have done to cause someone to choose hatred and violence.
.
While folks contemplate the causes, the armed guards might save some lives in the meantime. However, as Stephen suggested earlier, having armed guards might encourage a violent manic to engage them for the purpose of 'suicide by cop'. It's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' scenerio.
.
We live in a violent world. Hopefully, brotherhood and peace exist in the next one.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Locking the Barn Door ...

In response to Locking the Barn Door ... posted by Migisi:

.
Here's what Murray wrote between shootings.
.
Note: Murray COPIED from the Columbine shooter Eric Harris' manifesto!!

-- posted by Migisi