Protestantism

» pink101 - No Spoiler.

In response to Spoiler? posted by redback:

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The concept in politics is, "Saints, Sinners, and Save-ables".
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There is a "Swing" vote as well. These are the people outside of party views. They vote for "other" reasons than party affiliation.
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Generally, if you consider the idea of saints, they are the ones who will vote the party no matter what and the sinners are those who will not vote the party no matter what.
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There is a tendency, in American politics, to ignore individuals and look more to the percentages of some index or another. Thus, we can talk about how great the economy is when so many people are in a practical economic recession or actual depression. People on top generally consider such indexes with little regard for individuals who may be living in next to squalor.
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So, when someone faults Ralph Nader for being a spoiler, his response is that he was born in the USA and is over 35 years of age--that qualifies him to run for president; so, how can he be a spoiler if everyone is not a spoiler for how they vote? Suppose Brian, for example, who was born in the Commonwealth of Virginia were to run for president because he believed he had something of importance to contribute. Is he such a second class citizen that others could call him a spoiler for not supporting the front runner?
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There is a long tradition out of the nineteenth century in America that third parties are the ones that establish progressive change.
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The statement stands that if Nader can be seen as a spoiler, then those people who normally always vote the straight Democratic ticket that swung over to vote for Bush are each and every one of them spoilers as well.
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So, America's eight year nightmare cannot be blamed on Ralph Nader any more than it can be blamed on each and every person--regardless of party affiliation--that voted for Bush.
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In other words ~ plain and simple ~ Ralph Nader was no spoiler.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - No Spoiler.

In response to No Spoiler. posted by pink101:

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cannot be blamed on Ralph Nader any more than it can be blamed on each and every person--regardless of party affiliation--that voted for Bush.
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You said it!
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-- posted by Migisi

» redback - No Sinner Me.

In response to No Spoiler. posted by pink101:

The concept in politics is, "Saints, Sinners, and Save-ables".

I hadn't heard of 2 of those groups nor the possibility that I am NOT a sinner.

The tendency you speak of...the ignoring individuals et al...is some form of bizarre positivism IMO. If only 30% of the 'process' by whatever name...fails...then the process itself hasn't failed. We can't all be winners by definition?

...that third parties are the ones that establish progressive change.

Sounds right to me. Here the Democrats actually had democratic processes...conscience voting etc. It allowed a 'minority' view to be heard beyond mere tokenism. When a public advocate such as Nader is/was...then his street cred goes beyond the minorities it seems to me. And I wouldn't call him a spoiler in the derogatory sense of the word. It sounds like he's spoiling for a fair fight?

Suppose Brian, for example, who was born in the Commonwealth of Virginia were to run for president... I'd then ponder what he'd plan to do in his first 100 days in the top job.

And the way my mind trawls these things...ponder what you and Migisi would have in mind if you were of a similar bent ie towards the Presidency.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - No Sinner Me.

In response to No Sinner Me. posted by redback:
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I am NOT a sinner
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A political sinner being a person that always votes for the opposing party no matter what. They cannot be swung; so, they are just ignored. No sense in trying to win a sinner over. Only the save-ables can be brought over to your side as they are the ones who sit on the fence.
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And the way my mind trawls these things...ponder what you and Migisi would have in mind if you were of a similar bent ie towards the Presidency.
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I would support massive reform toward socialization of 1. Health Care, 2. Education, 3. Energy, 4. Mass Transportation, and 5. Telecommunication (telephone & associated services). I see these five aspects of life as being basic human rights and, therefore, believe they should be operated as public corporations similar to the U.S. Postal Service which means that private enterprise would be able to compete for users.
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I am probably fifty years ahead of my time; but, some such system is on the way in every case.
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - No Sinner Me.

In response to No Sinner Me. posted by pink101:

A political sinner being a person that always votes for the opposing party no matter what.

As opposed to an Islamic sinner who always "votes" for the Christian God?

I would support massive reform...

There is something to be said for transferring some of the "process" into private hands eg your five choices BUT management and control of the program itself...the rights of access etc...should stay in public hands. My idea of 'education' goes beyond the constraints of existing primary, secondary, tertiary structures. And should include basic human rights as you say...as well as our obligations.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Who Will "Swing"

In response to No Sinner Me. posted by redback:
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Saints are the ones with whom we agree.
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Sinners are the ones with whom we disagree.
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Save-ables are the ones who will "swing" to accept our views.
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That's how the analogy works. It's not my idea--it's a political paradigm.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Who Will "Swing"

In response to Who Will "Swing" posted by pink101:

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I heard Michigan (and Florida) Dems want to do a 'do over' primary now. This election is getting stranger and stranger.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Party Politics

In response to Who Will "Swing" posted by Migisi:
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Here's the way I see the problem:
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When Michigan's primary was held, there was a rule stated that the candidates would refuse to accept the results. In fact, Hillary was the only candidate on the Democratic ballot. The other choice was "Uncommitted". So, many Democrats didn't even vote and some voted Republican just to be mischeiveous. So, Hillary was the only Democrat able to even get a vote. Whatever results came out of that primary were not representative of the majority of the voters.
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Of course, Granholm wants the results accepted by the national--she is a Hillary supporter.
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I think most Michiganders would like a new primary to be held so we can see the will of the people. Other than that, it's time people recognize party politics for what it is
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Bush Endorses McBush

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George W. Bush has given his endorsement to his political reincarnation in the name of John McBush.
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If successful it will amount to a third term for GeeDubya. Will this nightmare never end?
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - McCain, Hagee, and Bush

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http://www.democrats.org/a/2008/02/john_...
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http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...
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http://cliffschecter.bravenewfilms.org/b...
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It's a good idea to have an open mind; but, it will require the person to take on one of the most important attributes of what it means to be a liberal.
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"I'm glad to be your friend!"
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John McBush will be bringing in the lambs:
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http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/31567-john...
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-- posted by pink101