Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - The Straw Man

In response to The Straw Man posted by pink101:

Well, Pink, if we find that we AGREE on several aspects of this debate, that's not a wasted effort.

» pink101 - The Straw Man

In response to The Straw Man posted by BrianTubbs:

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I think we can all agree that the New Testament is documented as the accepted Scripture of Christianity.
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It's the interpretation and meaning of it that is the foundation of our discontent with each other's take on things.
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Egads! Think of the crap coming down on Julieanne Gibbons in that Sudan situation where the people are in bondage to Sharia. What a horrible place to live. It proves a point to me. Democracy is NOT our salvation in America--it is our Constitution with our Bill of Rights that is our salvation as a political people. We have long since lost our democracy; but, we cannot lose our Inalienable Rights unless through the democratic process. We must tread carefully during these times of conservative upheaval.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Let's focus on NT

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by paper_turtle:

Brother Jones sorta writes:

Yes BUT the Jesus as we know Him, was not "official Jesus" until He was given the *Church's* stamp of approval at Carthage--and therefore was not "officially Jesus" binding on all *in the eyes of the church.* Individual congregations still had differing ideas about what was Jesus and what wasn't Jesus. Doesn't matter what "some" believed about Jesus; my point still stands: not everyone was bound by the same Jesus.

I have purposefully changed the words in the post to reflect the problem that the Apostles faced within the New Testament that we tend to ignore when we attempt to only focus on the few hundred years after the death of Christ. And followers of Christ are still facing that same singular problem today. What should a person do with the text about Jesus? Additional writings were also available concerning Jesus outside the cannon of scripture and the controversy involved even the men and women who became part of the original church. Their struggle to maintain the gospel of Jesus Christ will be ongoing up to the day that He returns, imo. Much of the problem with liberal Christianity involves the idea that no authority can be established in the writings of the New Testament, therefore, no authority other than private individual revelation is accepted, and Jesus words considered helpful but not reliable or authoritative.

i'm just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Let's focus on NT

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by Brother_Jones:
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Much of the problem with liberal Christianity involves the idea that no authority can be established in the writings of the New Testament, therefore, no authority other than private individual revelation is accepted, and Jesus words considered helpful but not reliable or authoritative.
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"Much of the problem with" your dogmatism "involves the idea that no authority can be established" outside "the writing of the" entire Bible, "therefore, no authority other than" corporate interpretation "is accepted, and Jesus words considered helpful but not reliable or authoritative" except as proclaimed by corporate expertise that comes down from this seminary or that one and is espoused by old timers.
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You set yourself up as an expert, Jones. Your very tag of "Old Timer" is an example. And, I don't think ANYONE here is buying the idea that you are the know-it-all that you seem to think you are. From time to time, you come up with acceptable points; but, by and at large, you're too dogmatic in your approach to the Gospel that LIBERATES humanity from such authoritative voices as yours.
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Let's focus on NT

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by Brother_Jones:

Much of the problem with liberal Christianity involves the idea that no authority can be established in the writings of the New Testament, therefore, no authority other than private individual revelation is accepted, and Jesus words considered helpful but not reliable or authoritative.

Much of the porblem with conservative Christianity involves the idea that humankind can absolutely and positively know exactly what God said.

Conservative Christians deny private individual revelation as a source of anthority, although anyone who sincerely prays (whether liberal or conservative) has received individual revelation.

In other words, its not a matter of either/or but both/and. And I don't understand why anyone would deny the importance of individual revelation. This last sentence is not intended to be sarcastic, nor is it rhetorical. I would really like to have it explained to me.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brother_Jones - Let's focus on NT

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by pink101:

except as proclaimed by corporate expertise that comes down from this seminary or that one and is espoused by old timers.

Well, at least we have some dialogue between several parties and the 'liberals' haven't officially disengaged from the New Testament protrayal of Jesus other than their confusion over His words, His life, His resurrection, and His purpose.

Maybe I'm confused about reality. I guess if we take our biggest world problem with fundamentalist religion...a la.. the Muslim Terrorists...we should start trying to initiate a dialogue their leaders and see if we can find some common ground concerning your idea of society. I surely would rather love them than be forced to see my love ones slain in the streets. I sorta imagine with my mind that a sit down conference between Pinky and Bin Laden would not be about living in peace with God, but would be about trying to explain why folk like Brother Jones and his kind are so mean and nasty down at their local nasty church. lol. But don't let me get carried away and try to put words in the mouth of a potential Democrat. lol.

You set yourself up as an expert, Jones. Your very tag of "Old Timer" is an example

Well, I suppose that is kinda true. I am using a sorta style that irritates and grates upon such as you. I am attempting to be more liberal everyday in the areas that count for good. I also agree with your comment that nobody on this site sees me as an expert in the bible. But you are hitting upon the problem without admitting that you are somehow and someway looking for some particular ground to stand upon which seems a little like solid truth. I can promise this. If I came aboard each day and questioned every supernatural event in the life of Jesus, I would be held in a state of suspect by every Christian here. Even you. You might be the first to object since you often put style over substance, and you really don't seem to know what you believe. Or to put it another way...you don't seem hold beliefs as being very important or sacred.

by and at large, you're too dogmatic in your approach to the Gospel that LIBERATES humanity from such authoritative voices as yours.

Everybody who voices an opinion about the Gospel is subject to misunderstanding Jesus and presenting the Savior of the World in a bad light. No doubt I have sometimes done that. But I listen to myself sometimes, and I listen to God a bit, and then once in a while, I listen to other Christians. If I thought that you had committed your life to Christ and that you were truly seeking to follow Him, I would probably take your thoughts a bit more seriously. I do sorta think about your criticisms. But most of the people on this site know you well enough that it is pretty clear that you do not follow Jesus Christ in much of any way, except the way the liberal Christians are speculating the future of Christianity...which is to put no emphasis on the life of Jesus concerning whether He is a reliable source of information about God.

i'm just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Let's focus on Jesus

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by Brother_Jones:

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But I listen to myself sometimes, and I listen to God a bit, and then once in a while, I listen to other Christians. If I thought that you had committed your life to Christ and that you were truly seeking to follow Him, I would probably take your thoughts a bit more seriously.
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It seems to me that you not only take my thoughts quite seriously; but, you also take some others whom you identify as liberals quite seriously as well.
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So, you admit to the fact that you have some inner conversations within your own mind? And, one of those conversations is with God and another is with Jesus and another is with your self?
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That's a start for some reasonable reparte'.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Let's focus on NT

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by paper_turtle:

And I don't understand why anyone would deny the importance of individual revelation. This last sentence is not intended to be sarcastic, nor is it rhetorical. I would really like to have it explained to me.
I guess I can testify after being longtime in the Charismatic movement that a lot of the church does not object to personal individual revelation, with the exception of when the personal revelation contradicts the New Testament. But it varies from church to church.

But, I don't want to be sarcastic either. Let me ask you a question? Have you ever attended a Seance? What did you think? Can one person do a hell of a lot of damage it they begin speaking from a personal spiritual insight? Doesn't the same sort of thing present some problems in the church of Christ? Don't we need some sort of group focus to proceed in the quest of following Christ?

the oldtimer

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - A Seance?

In response to Let's focus on NT posted by Brother_Jones:
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I'm butting in here.
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A seance?
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Let's see. A seance is a meeting of spiritists or spiritualists, right?
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They involve themselves in a group situation where they all come away with the same thoughts of what took place, right?
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Sounds a lot like denominational doctrine to me.
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It most certainly is not individual revelation--not by a long shot. Instead it is a group thing where everyone comes into agreement based on some expert who is in charge.
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Could some old timer in seance operations be the expert in charge?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - A Seance?

In response to A Seance? posted by pink101:

Let's see. A seance is a meeting of spiritists or spiritualists, right?

Now you want to go back to some book knowledge and proceed to the library for some way to frame my question back to PaperTurtle. The Seance experience doesn't seem to be limited by religion. It seems to occur everyday when one person 'gets' a message from the spirit world and conveys that message to folk. My own experience is about 50/50 with these kinds of messages. So about half of the time, the person either listened to a bad spirit or they were playing some sort of prophesy game with their own head.

But that is just my experience.

oldtimer

-- posted by Brother_Jones