Protestantism

» redback - Tis ...Tis... This

In response to Tis ...Tis... This posted by Migisi:

I'm fascinated with the belief in the Trinity. I can believe in a God without such a seemingly critical element as a 'Trinity'. There can be countless manifestations of God but Biblically they all slip into the 'one true version' of a paternalistic sole God...God must be male.

There is a power to 'faith' that enables believers to jump that (and many a) question. Maybe that capacity doesn't dilute the question and maybe the question doesn't dilute the Bible. Tis a speculative 'maybe'.

Brian relies on Ravi but also gave for our assistance, Francis Beckworth's (confusing) version for the video-deprived. I can't access Ravi's version...don't know if Brian is relying on the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity or a Protestant version.

I don't know how trinitarianistic the non-Catholic Christian is. Pondering the 'jumping question' point above, the Pope in a precedent, has instructed the world's one billion(?) Catholics to pray "in perpetuity" to "....purify the clergy." for well known misdeeds.

I accept those of faith will simply pray. But for me, it seems a Papal concession that simple prayer does not work. And the whole world praying in unison may not work for a lifetime.

An "inseparable" part of the Trinity apparently is the doctrine of incarnation:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arc...

I think there is some possibility that before one has a belief in the Trinity, one meets a pre-requisite belief in one's pastor, preacher et al. Or that one secondarily follows St Paul who follows Christ.

-- posted by redback

» Brian Tubbs - Tis ...Tis... This

In response to Tis ...Tis... This posted by redback:

I can believe in a God without such a seemingly critical element as a 'Trinity'.

Belief in God is the critical starting point. And there's plenty of evidence to support the existence of a supernatural, cosmic force of some kind - apart from the Bible.

Once you open the pages of the Bible, however, in an attempt to understand that cosmic force, you are introduced to some details about the nature of God that leads you toward the Trinity.

» Brian Tubbs - Reply to Migisi

In response to Old Testament posted by Migisi:

Migisi, we're getting into interpretations here as well as which manuscripts to trust. I'm familiar with all the biblical passages you've cited, and our understandings of those passages are different. I'm also familiar with the debate over the manuscripts. That would require an enormously long post to get into.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. And I'm fine with that.

» redback - Bible101

In response to Tis ...Tis... This posted by BrianTubbs:

"Once you open the pages however, in an attempt to understand that cosmic force..."

...I am lead to Bible descriptions and the trigger for many questions...some resolved, some not. Those pages have been opened a few times these last 60 years.

From reading many discussions here, by those far better versed or whose posts resonate more...I'm happy to agree to disagree. Of course, what the Bible and its versions is intended to say...I leave to relative experts...who occasionally hand me crumbs.

"...the nature of God that leads you toward the Trinity."

Multi-directional? A Bible that leads to spirituality, rather than doctrine? The three sides to the study coin?

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Confidence

In response to Confidence posted by BrianTubbs:

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Has anyone asked you to agree with them on the Trinity?
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I don't think so.
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Consideration and discussion--does that amount to agreement?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Reply to Brian

In response to Reply to Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. And I'm fine with that.
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I'm sure you ~are~ fine with that. It's hardly the first time I've tried to discuss controversial doctrines with you. And certainly not the first time you've dodged the hard questions with: "That would require an enormously long post to get into", and "We'll just have to agree to disagree." You started this thread, so I thought you were finally committed to discussing it. Guess I was wrong.
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How's the weather in Ohio? It's been a crazy winter so far, ay?

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Bible101

In response to Bible101 posted by redback:

I think you categorized yourself as "video-challenged" earlier . I hope you're able to look at the Ravi Zacharias video. He does a great job explaining the logic and plausibility of the Trinity. I really would like to get your perspective on what he says.

» pink101 - Bible101

In response to Bible101 posted by BrianTubbs:

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The way you've been responding to whatever anyone posts on the subject, I wonder why would you ever want anyone's perspective.
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I think--according to the article I linked--it seems as though you are a "Performative" participant here.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Tis ...Tis... This

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There can be countless manifestations of God but Biblically they all slip into the 'one true version' of a paternalistic sole God...God must be male.
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That would depend on whether one accepts that version. Digging deeper, there's good evidence that the Hebrews and early Christians believed the Holy Spirit to be - (gasp!) - feminine.
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I found this article very interesting. It's worth reading in its entirety, IMO.
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The Feminine Gender of the Holy Spirit
On the Orthodox Revision of the Gender of the Holy Spirit
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3...
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Snippets (my bold):
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"G. Zuntz, the noted higher critic, from his lifetime of examining the oldest Greek texts and textual fragments from the third century forward, writes that there was no attempt in the West to maintain the integrity of the original texts until Jerome produced the Latin Vulgate at the request of the papacy in the fourth century. Zuntz, by using the standard practice of textual comparison, in his detailed analysis of the oldest Pauline manuscript, notes, in his book, The Text of the Epistles, numerous places where the text has been altered. Jerome, himself, in letters to his colleagues, bewails the fact that he has so many variant texts to select from for the compilation of a standardized version. At one point before him he has the old Hieronymian text and its revision. He says, "The differences throughout are clear and striking." In his writings he does leave us a clue to the subject at hand. At one point he has before him the Gospel to the Hebrews written in Aramaic used by the Syrian Christians which, as some now say, was the forerunner to the gospel of Matthew and predated the four canonical gospels. In it, Jerome says that the Holy Spirit is expressed in the feminine gender and is considered the mother in law of the soul. (Library 11, commentary in Isaiah, chapter 11: Library 2, commentary. In Micah 7.6)...
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"...In the most ancient of the rare Old Syriac copies, the Siniatic Palimpsest, from the 4th or 5th century, found in the Covenant of St. Catherine in the Sinia by Mrs. Anes Lewis and transcribed by Syriac Professor R.L. Bensly of Cambridge University in 1892, the words of Jesus in John 14:26 read:
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"But She -the Spirit - the Paraclete whom He-will-send to you- my Father - in my name - She will teach you every-thing; She will remind you of that which I have told you."
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"In both the Hebrew and Aramaic language the word spirit is in the feminine gender but in the Greek language it is neuter. It is the Greek neuter word, pnuema, that was employed by the ancient Septuagint translators of the Hebrew Old Testament when they translated the feminine ruach into Greek. The authors who wrote in Greek were limited in expressing the Holy Spirit in the feminine by the constraints of the language. In addition, signposts directing one to the feminine nature of the Holy Spirit may have been removed or altered. Bart Ehrman, writes in his book, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, that from his comparative analysis, the Orthodox Church altered the texts to counter various beliefs considered heresies, especially during the time of Marcion, when they were compiling their own canon of the four gospels." (end)
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".... the name of El [meaning 'God'] Shaddai. (Exodus 6:3) Shaddai, in the Aramaic, is in the feminine gender. In the Hebrew it has closely associated words that have feminine meanings. In both the Hebrew and Aramaic, it means full breasted. Reasonably, in all this, although intentionally closeted away from the mind's understanding in the second century, feminine divinity has had an ongoing principle role in the affairs of men." (end)
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-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Rabbi explains Shekina

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All quoted from (my bold): http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askra...
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Question
I have been reading about a figure in the Jewish faith called the Shekina. From the little I have found, she seems to be what Christians call the "Holy Ghost". This is starting to bug me because if this is true then they basically have stripped her of her gender, something characteristic of the Christian churches is sexism. Any information about the Shekina would be greatly appreciated.
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"Answer
Shalom!
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"The term "Shekina" is best translated as "Divine Presence" and is simply another term for God. This term refers to man's relationship with God. This relationship can be illustrated with the following example: Imagine being in the Grand Canyon before sunrise, totally enveloped in the darkness of its vast depths. Suddenly, the first ray of sunlight beams from the horizon, and you witness a beautiful sunrise. You think to yourself, "Is it possible this sunrise was a mere chemical mishap? No, this must be a creation of God!" The awe that person felt, is the experience with the Shechina, which is referred to in the feminine.
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"The Shekina is inseparable from God, as opposed to the holy ghost which borders on idolatry.
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"With blessings from Jerusalem,
Rabbi Shraga Simmons" (end)

-- posted by Migisi