Protestantism

» redback - These Areas

In response to These Areas posted by pink101:

"They're afraid they will lose their faith."

Tis only speculation for me but I ponder the "glue" used by any 'adherent' to any faith. Is it about building up such an understanding in one faith eg Budhhism, that it becomes the "one for me" purely on its own merits. Or is it by comparison. There is potential here for Christianity to make less sense than say Islam so Islam must be better...and vice versa.

We can't all belong to say a winning football team so we make the best of what we can belong to? Or must belong to?

I feel no compulsion to "belong". This for me at least, is not about a democracy where the majority decide by populist vote and didactic laws. There is something about Christian spirituality that remains interesting, also about Islam, Budhhism etc but that's it.

-- posted by redback

» Brian Tubbs - Fear

I can't speak for others here, but a discussion of the Trinity presents me with no discomfort or fear in terms of my faith or relationship with God.

This conversation now seems to be drifting off into speculation and alternative views of the Trinity. That's fine. And I'm reading the posts as they are made, but they are unpersuasive. I'll stick with the biblical teaching on the Trinity.

And I refer people back to the Ravi Zacharias video that started this all. Watch Ravi talk about the Trinity. I can't put it any better than he does. The other video links were good too.

» pink101 - Fear

In response to Fear posted by BrianTubbs:

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I'll stick with the biblical teaching on the Trinity.
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Which is?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Fear of Freedom

In response to Fear of Freedom posted by pink101:

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It's called the fear of freedom, isn't it?
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Common, especially when one is raised in captivity. I liken it to a bird that's been confined to a cage all its life. It fears the open door and retreats to a safe corner inside. It might venture out eventually, only to climb about on the cage wire - still staying within their comfort zone - which is the cage. It takes them a long time to fly, if they ever do.
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I think you'd appreciate this article. It's dated, but still applies to today's religio-political climate:
Hostages to fear, by Bill Moyers http://fogarty.org/tim/blog/2005/09/28/6/
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"It is the love of liberty, he [Obadiah Holmes] said, "that must free the soul."

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Fear of Freedom

In response to Fear of Freedom posted by Migisi:
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Obadiah Holmes?
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Good Golly, Molly, where did Bill Moyers ever hear of one of my favorite persons, Obadiah Holmes?
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I have a copy of Obadian's last will and testament.
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He was one of America's original Baptist preachers. I recommended him to Brian way back when.
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http://search.yahoo.com/search?n=10&ei=U...
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When you understand Obadiah, you begin to understand what it means to be a "dyed in the wool Baptist". That's me if I measure up to what Christian Fundamentalism teaches or not--and I don't. And, that is precisely a result of my Baptist heritage. There's hope for us yet.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Fear

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I'll stick with the biblical teaching on the Trinity.
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You mean, this Biblical teaching?:
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- "Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39.
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- "You shall have no other gods before [beside] me." Exodus 20:3
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- "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34:14
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- "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.
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- "This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6
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- "... so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other." Isaiah 45:6
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- "For this is what the LORD says-
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited-
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other." Isaiah 45:18.
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- "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other." Isaiah 45:22

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Tenuous At Best

In response to Fear posted by Migisi:

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The idea that the Bible teaches a Trinity is tenuous at best.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Contrived At Best

In response to Tenuous At Best posted by pink101:
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Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man.
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John 4:24 - "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
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New Bible Dictionary 1982
"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."
". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . ."
"Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."
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The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism 1995
". . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament."
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The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."
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The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967
"The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."
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Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard
"The Old Testament is a strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there or even in any way shadowed forth, is an assumption that has long held sway in theology, but is utterly without foundation."
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The New Encyclopedia Britannica 1976
"Neither the word trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."
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The Complete Word Study Old Testament 1994
"To the Jew, (Deut. 6:4-9) this is the most important text in the Old Testament. Jesus himself called the injunction in 6:5 'the first and great commandment' Matt.22:36-38. . . Moses is teaching not only the priority of belief in one God, but also a means to preserve that belief. As time went on, the proper understanding of the Shema with its spiritual implications was no longer grasped by the people. This absence of saving knowledge became a factor in their spiritual downfall."
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Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie
"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."
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Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.
"The New Testament does not contain a formalized explanation of the trinity that uses such words as trinity, three persons, one substance, and the like."
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The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976
"The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence. [said Karl Barth]"
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Exploring The Christian Faith 1992
"nowhere in the Bible do we find the doctrine of the trinity clearly formulated"
"People who are using the King James Version might be inclined to point to I John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost' But it is now generally recognized that this verse does not belong to the original text of the letter; it is a later insertion."
"The theological formulation took place later, after the days of the apostles."
"the doctrine of the trinity is not found in the Bible"
"The doctrine was to develop along mainly Greek lines"
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Taken from An Appeal to Trinitarian Christians - Historical Background of the Trinity
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhis...
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There are MANY more references (at the above site) which refute that the ~Bible~ teaches the trinity.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Problems Of Literalism

In response to Man-made At Best posted by Migisi:
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Among the problems of literalism is the way so many Evangelicals approach the idea of the Trinity.
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So, how does that get to be a problem? Doesn't the Trinity promote a strong belief system as it shows how God is the Great Three in One?
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I only do not think so; but, I believe literalism is a discrediting attack on the Gospel of Jesus. I've been here at Suite 101 for some time promoting a type of Christianity that is seen as Modernism by many; but, I don't think it is. In fact, I think my view is the more honest one.
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The Gospel is all about atonement--Bringing God and the individual together; whereas, the Trinity is all about isolating God away from the individual--making the individual separated from God as an object. It is when the Trinity is seen as a paradigm for the individual's relationship with God that it makes any real sense. It is about the way the individual relates with God through accepting Jesus as their example, ie; "I and the Father are One." That is atonement plain and simple. We--as individuals--and the Father can also be one. THIS is the Gospel message. It's called the Good News. The priesthood's rigamarole is out and simplicity of Jesus is in. Don't expect it to be accepted by officialdom as Jesus was crucified for his stand in it.
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Jesus doesn't set up a religious organization complete with bishops, deacons, and pastors. That's the work of the priesthood. Instead, Jesus teaches that individuals have the right to access God and that the realm of God is easily within the arm's reach of all persons regardless of their belief system, e.g., Jesus and the woman at the well. I think Paper Turtle is on the right pathway. It is revolutionary to the religious establishments of the day; but, it is what Jesus taught.
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IMO
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Which God?

In response to Problems Of Literalism posted by pink101:
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I've never attended Protestant services. Curious. Which deity do Baptists call upon by name, and pray to, during their services? God - Jesus - the Holy Spirit (what's his name?)? To one, or two, or all three deities?

-- posted by Migisi