Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Why Do We Need

In response to Why Do We Need posted by pink101:

Several reasons...

1) Ravi Zacharias poses the question: If God is a God of love, who was God loving before the Creation? If God is a God of communication, who was God communicating with before the Creation?

2) The Deity of Jesus Christ is central to Christianity. If Jesus isn't God, Christianity collapses. I realize this is a controversial statement for some, but if Jesus is just a teacher, then Christianity is merely a socio-philosophical movement at its heart. The Deity of Jesus is THE bedrock tenet of Christianity...period.

3) The Bible teaches the Trinity, and therefore its credibility as being divinely inspired depends on the reality of the Trinity.

4) Finally (and this is off the top of my head - others may add more reason), the Trinity allows people to appreciate the multi-dimensional nature and work of God. We can "connect" better with God and understand God better, by picturing and visualizing the three persons and manifestations of God as laid out for us by the doctrine of the Trinity.

» Brian Tubbs - List of triple deities

In response to List of triple deities posted by Migisi:

For whatever this is worth, I acknowledge that there are Trinitarian-type theologies in other religions.

So what?

There ARE similarities between MOST of the religions of the world - past and present. Why should any of us be surprised that the doctrine of the Trinity would be among those similarities?

» pink101 - Demeaning To God

In response to Why Do We Need posted by BrianTubbs:

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I think reasons that put God to some test are demeaning to God.
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I don't think you have given very good reasons for the existence of a trinity--especially the Christian Trinity which sets up a paradigm for humanity's possible relationship with God.
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Why is that such a problem for Evangelicals to swallow?
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - of -isms

In response to of -isms posted by Migisi:

I see 2 elements to a peach...what I eat plus what I discard...as one response to points you raised. There can be any number of physical elements but what do you call the element of use or purpose?

Most things can be divisible by threes...for convenience. When I determined welfare 'entitlement' there were those manifestly entitled, those manifestly not entiitled and all those much harder to work out. Dubya and others may give us 3-pont sound bytes. Etc.

Brian asks:

"If God is a God of love, who was God loving before the Creation?"

IMO is a valid question but maybe I examine it differently. For example, there was an eternity then 32 years(?) for Jesus then 2,000+ years hence? A divine blink of an eye? I know I wasn't in "the room" a few billion years ago unless I'm re-incarnated without insight. No value in no insight.

Two, if we are peace loving folk here, who do we share that with when there's no-one else in M & S at say 10am AEDST?

The extract I cited in the earlier post does not make sense to me at a number of levels but methinks we all come to understanding God through different paths. BUT trying to equate God to a multiple personality where one excludes the other seems almost insulting...so I think I agree with Pink on that point.

"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"

means exactly what? The scriptures read...as I understand it...tis OK to blaspheme against the other parts of the trinity and seek forgiveness. And a true Christian could never find themselves in that trap.

Putting things in boxes makes it easier to manage many people, I guess. The private can't take the general's orders as discretionary etc. But this is about us...not about who God is. And I come from a place where black and white is shared with a shade of grey...or gray in US-speak.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Peachy

In response to of -isms posted by redback:
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To blaspheme is to speak on behalf of an authority without permission.
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To blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is to speak on behalf of the Holy Spirit without permission.
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How can anyone have permission to speak on behalf of the Holy Spirit?
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But, I think you are knocking on the right door.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - The number Three

In response to List of triple deities posted by pink101:

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What's the significance of a trinity?
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Consider the significance of the number 3.
From a rather longish historical expose', including its frequent use in scripture, found here: "The Symbolism and Spiritual Significance of the Number Three" http://www.greatdreams.com/three/three.h... )
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- God's attributes = omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.
- Man = body, mind, spirit.
- Three divisions completing time = past, present, and future.
- Complete sum of human capability = thought, word, and deed.
- Three propositions necessary to complete the simplest form of argument = the major premiss, the minor, and the conclusion.
- Three kingdoms embrace our ideas of matter = mineral, vegetable, and animal.
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[Migisi: I add Red's three degrees of comparison - three sides of a coin. Human pregnancy is divided into trimesters. In fairy tales, three is used extensively... 3 bears, 3 little pigs, 3 brothers - which symbolize a unit or family. ]
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When we turn to the Scriptures, this completion becomes Divine, and marks Divine completeness or perfection.
Three denotes divine perfection;
Seven denotes spiritual perfection;
Ten denotes ordinal perfection; and
Twelve denotes governmental perfection.
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Interesting stuff here too:
The Numbers in the Scriptures! (Do they Carry any Spiritual Significance?) http://members.aol.com/twarren13/numbers...

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Pagan roots

In response to List of triple deities posted by BrianTubbs:
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Brian wrote: There ARE similarities between MOST of the religions of the world - past and present. Why should any of us be surprised that the doctrine of the Trinity would be among those similarities?
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I don't think we should be surprised at all. The Christian trinity concept is rooted in ancient pagan polytheistic beliefs and philosophies.
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http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/cat...
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"The trinity: 'is a very marked feature in Hindooism, and is discernible in Persian, Egyptian, Roman, Japanese, Indian and the most ancient Grecian mythologies" (Religious Dictionary, Lyman Abbott, p944).
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"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it ... From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity" (The Story of Civilization, Caesar and Christ, Will Durant, Part III, 1944, p. 595).
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"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. ... This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine trinity ... can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions" (French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel [New Universal Dictionary], Vol. 2, p. 1467).
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"Without abandoning our principle that Egyptian influence made itself felt as an undercurrent throughout Hellenism, we may nevertheless claim pride of place for Alexandria and so consider Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity... The Trinity is not the only subject matter at issue here. Also Christology, which is closely linked to it - the doctrine concerning the nature of Christ and especially his pre-existence before the creation and time - revolves around questions which had been posed earlier by Egyptian theologians and which they solved in a strikingly similar way." (Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz, p254-257).
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"The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who ... were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy ... That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied." (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, edited by Samuel Macauley Jackson, 1957, Vol. IX, p. 91).
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"The doctrine of the trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation. It had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. It grew up, and was engrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers." [The Church of the First Three Centuries]."
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"In order to argue sucessfully for the unconditionality and permanence of the ancient Trinitarian Creeds, it is necessary to make a distinction between doctrines, on the one hand, and on the terminology and conceptuality in which they were formulated on the other... Some of the crucial concepts employed by these creeds, such as "substance", "person", and "in two natures" are postbiblical novelties. If these particular notions are essential, the doctrines of these creeds are clearly conditional, dependent on the LATE HELLENISTIC MILIEU." (George A. Lindbeck, Professor of Historical Theology, Yale University, "The Nature of Doctrine", Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1984, p. 92).
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"This sublime pronouncement of absolute monotheism was a declaration of war against all polytheism . . . In the same way, the Shema [Migisi: The Shema is an affirmation of Judaism and a declaration of faith in one God. The first line: "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"] excludes the trinity of the Christian creed as a violation of the Unity of God" (The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, J. H. Hertz, 1941, Vol. 1, p. 215).
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"It is a good thing to examine the revelation that God made to the Jewish people in the Old Testament. We shall not find in it a lesson on the trinity--there is none." [Twentieth Century Encyclopedia of Catholicism, Vol. 20, What Is The Trinity, Bernard Piault]."
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What were those revelations to the Jewish people in the Old Testament?...

EXO 20:3 - Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
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ISA 45:22 - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
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ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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ISA 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
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ISA 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
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REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Trinity As Paradigm

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The Trinity sets up a paradigm that is an example for humanity.
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Jesus repeats it more than once, if my memory serves me correctly.
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When two persons connect in a relationship with each other, the spirit of their relationship is brought into existence. THAT, in itself, is a trinity. Where there were two of us, there now is three of us--you and me and the spirit of our relationship. Or, in the case of Jesus, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are the Children of God--so to speak.
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The effect is the atonement--the bringing together of God and the Child of God to be at one with each other. So that a person is able to be a party to their own trinity that includes God. God, You(a child of God), and the Spirit of your relationship. That's the example set by Jesus.
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But, Christians do not like that model. Even so, they have to admit it.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Trinity As Paradigm

In response to Trinity As Paradigm posted by pink101:
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I understand your model - better than I do the traditional Christian one.
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The doctrine contends that there are three ~separate~ persons ... Father, Son, Spirit... each having different functions. Gospels confirm this. I have and can provide verses if asked.
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The Nicene Creed mentions each person separately and specifically, and their role (simplified):
"We believe in one God, the Father..." (role: Almighty Creator),
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ..." (role: Redeemer)
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord..." (role: 'giver of life').
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The 'trinity' consists of one God and two Lords?
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But wait...
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The Creed declares that Jesus is also a god - a "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God". However, note that the Creed doesn't declare that the Spirit is a "God from God...".
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So, at the end of the day, we have two Gods and one lord?
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I suggest the trinity doctrine was adopted by early church fathers to appease those who held to polytheism, to allow for the deification of Jesus, and to squash doctrinal arguments and unite the churches.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Pagan roots

In response to Pagan roots posted by Migisi:

Migisi, you've jumped from a fact (similarity) to a conclusion (Christianity borrowed from the other religions). That conclusion does not necessarily follow. There are two other possibilities:

1. coincidence (however remote the likelihood, it's still a possibility), or...

2. human awareness

I favor the second. By "human awareness," I mean what Paul alludes to in Romans 1-2. I believe that God created human beings in His image and placed within the human soul a basic awareness of His imprint. Thus, we are born with an innate awareness of the spiritual, of the supernatural, of God's mysterious wonder. All of history's religious movements are efforts that groups of people took in their journey toward discovering God's nature - a journey that began with that individual sense of wonder and presence that God put into every human soul.

If anyone is unclear what I'm talking about, go read Romans 1-2.