Protestantism

» Migisi - Image of God

In response to Image of God posted by BrianTubbs:
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(Some ultra-fundamentalists argue that Man was created in God's image and Woman was created in Man's image, but Genesis 1 refutes that pretty clearly).
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Likely they get their idea from:
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." (Gen 2:22-23),
and from: "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man." (1 Cor. 11:8)
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The legend idicts this made-from-man woman alone for the 'Fall of Man'... "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Timothy 2:14) Througout Scriptures, women are blamed for the impurity and sin of mortal men... "How then can man be justified with God? or, how can he be clean that is born of a woman?" (Job 25:4), and "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4) (Good question. How could Jesus have been 'clean' [pure], being born of impure [sinful] woman?)
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Calvin said: "Woman is more guilty than man, because she was seduced by Satan, and so diverted her husband from obedience to God that she was an instrument of death leading to all perdition. It is necessary that woman recognize this, and that she learn to what she is subjected; and not only against her husband. This is reason enough why today she is placed below and that she bears within her ignominy and shame."
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The story goes that God created all the animals, and he made male and female ~together~. Genesis 1 doesn't say he made males first, then the females. Nor does it say this about God's human creation. But in Gen. 2, God deliberately created Woman after Man - an afterthought - instead of them being created ~together~. She's Man's 'helper', subordinate to him. An explanation of origins, and justification for, the patriarchal system.
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I've heard Fundies claim that marriage is set up for ~women's~ salvation through ~procreation~, based on Paul's theology: "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing..." (1 Tim 2:15). As we know, this procreation can only be achieved through copulation with Man (except for Jesus' mom, of course). Hence, a woman's salvation is through a man. Indeed, even after her 'saving' childbirth, she needs a ~man~ to atone for her impurity and 'sin': "These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. She is to bring two doves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean." (Leviticus 12) (According to Jewish religious custom, Mary would've been required to bring an atoning sin offering to the priest after birthing Jesus.)
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So, both men and women reflect the image of God.
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Before the 'fall', Woman was a made-from-man copy, a mere 'help meet', an assistant and subordinate to Man, an afterthought. How can pre-fall Woman be a reflection of the Almighty's image?

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Answering Migisi

In response to Answering Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:
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And that is why you doubt my statement that I would be willing to worship a female Goddess - if that reflected the true nature of God.
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Can we play 'what if'? What if the Creator 'revealed' herself as feminine? If you can, substitute 'Mother' for 'Father', and 'Daughter' for 'Son', when you read Bible passages. Put yourself in the role of women in the Bible. How do you think your life might be impacted today if Christianity was founded by and on a woman's spiritual ministry? Could you be an ordained pastor, or even talk or teach in church (Paulette commands you 'keep silent', and learn everything from your wife at home.) Imagine yourself 'subject to your wife in everything'. Imagine yourself as chattel - abused, discarded, even killed because you happen to be born lowly female. Imagine being blamed for every evil, and the sole cause of sin and death in the world. Imagine you've been taught this since birth.
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Give a try. Yes, I doubt very much that you could accept a Goddess. And likely, you'd create a masculine counter part -- like the ancient pagans did.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Female Trinity

In response to Female Trinity posted by redback:
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What does the one "image" of a woman AND man entail or are we in the several images of God.
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The Bible only offers us mental images (concepts/perceptions) of some 40 male writers -- a very small gallery. IMO, the 'image' of God is the mental picture of God which exists in our own mind. Given the uniqueness of the human mind, I reckon there are as many 'images' as there were/are people.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Answering Migisi

In response to Answering Migisi posted by Migisi:

I'm still chuckling at "Paulette."

For those who believe Christianity is anti-female, watch this video...

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/vi...

» redback - Partial answer to redback

In response to Partial answer to redback posted by BrianTubbs:

A response that starts with: "Remember that..." is a worry for this non-Biblicist. I'm sure my questions are getting confused as to context. But, any image of God (in humanity?) presumably(??) existed a triple eternity++ before Genesis, didn't it? That's the "before sin" part I guess in your post...but my comment is not Bible-limited.

I'm not getting caught up in our "views" of God. What I "view" in the mirror is a superficial image of whatever part of me gets reflected...and another person, at a different angle, gets a different view. This sort of analogy is circular to me.

Being made to a "likeness" if the Bible is correctly translated, is a totally different concept than how we view God and how that view has evolved over time.

-- posted by redback

» redback - Female Trinity

In response to Female Trinity posted by Migisi:

Given the uniqueness of the human mind, I reckon there are as many 'images' as there were/are people.

Please note my partial response to Brian's partial which sorta relates.

And if we're all made to that image, tis an obtuse way to develop doctrine for me. Did a purer form of political correctness exist in ancient times? No matter if you are lame or pretty or ugly or fat, you are all equal (ly sinful) in His sight. Unique because in a few thousand years time, you'll be all ever so different...and Tom Cruise can provide much of the answer.

-- posted by redback

» Migisi - Answering Migisi

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Strobel mentions the rabbis' prayer, which begins "Blessed art thou, oh God, who did not make me a woman.."
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Strobel leaves out other prejudices outlined. It actually begins: "Blessed be He that He did not make me a Gentile; blessed be He that He did not make me a boor (slave); blessed be He that He did not make me a woman."
- Credited to Rabbi Judah b. Elai (c. AD 150) in Tos Berakoth 7:18 and Jer Berakoth 13b; and to R. Meier (c. AD 150) in Bab Menahoth 43b.
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See how closely it resembles this Greco-Roman philosophy... three reasons for gratitude, to be repeated by Greek men: " . . . that I was born a human being and not a beast, next a man and not a woman, thirdly, a Greek and not a barbarian."
- Attributed to Socrates by Diogenes Laertius (Vitae Philosophorum 1.33) or to Plato by Plutarch (Marius 46.1) and Lactantius (Divine Institutes 3.19.17)
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The early second century church leader, Tertullian,(160-235 AD) writes of women:
"I mean, of the first sin, and the odium (attaching to her as the cause) of human perdition. "In pains and in anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward thine husband (is) thy inclination, and he lords It over thee." 3 And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve?
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"The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer of that (forbidden) tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law:
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"you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack.
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"You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert-that is, death-even the Son of God had to die."
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Whatever positive role women had in the early church in Apostolic times was lost during and after the 2nd century - after the patriarchal (misogynist) heirarchy of the church had been established. Women would've had to have been martyred to receive any notice at all in the church.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Ortberg

In response to Answering Migisi posted by Migisi:

FYI - the speaker was Ortberg, but was hosted on Strobel's site.

I agree with ONE of your points, Migisi. I do think that, in some circles, the advances that women made during Jesus' ministry (and, believe it or not, Paul's ministry) were rolled back by men later. That is in SOME circles - not across the board.

» pink101 - Ortberg

In response to Ortberg posted by BrianTubbs:

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Generally, it is quite well accepted that Jewish men did not believe their call is to be a provider for the family. Instead, they believe it is to attend Synagogue and in prayer and worship. The women are to do the work. Ultra conservative Jews still believe that way.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Women

In response to Ortberg posted by BrianTubbs:
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Imagine hearing this about yourself, in the Bible, and from the religious:
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"Any iniquity is small compared to a woman's iniquity.... From a woman sin had its beginning, and because of her we all die" (Sirach 25:19, 24; 2nd century B.C.)
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"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; it is woman who brings shame and disgrace" (Sirach 42:14)
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"The woman is inferior to the man in every way" (Josephus, Against Apion 2:201)
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"A hundred women are no better than two men" (Talmud, Ber. 45b, the Talmud was written after the New Testament, but this agrees with first-century attitudes.)
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"There is no wisdom in woman except with the spindle" (bYom. 66b).
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"If any man teaches his daughter Torah it is as though he taught her lechery" (Rabbi Eliezer, Swidler, 93) and,
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"It is better that the words of the Law be burned, than that they should be given to a woman" (Hurley, 72).
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"...the testimony of women is not accepted as valid because of the lightheadedness and brashness of the female sex" (Swidler, 115).
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I agree with ONE of your points, Migisi. I do think that, in some circles, the advances that women made during Jesus' ministry (and, believe it or not, Paul's ministry) were rolled back by men later.
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Women mostly had a supportive role in Jesus' ministry - as benefactors: "...These women were helping to support them [Jesus and apostles] out of their own means." (Luke 8:3)
And as servants and care-givers: "...They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs." (Mat 27:55) They 'followed' Jesus and the apostles.
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Did Jesus hand-pick a woman to be one of his apostles? Not in the beginning. Why not? Some say Mary Magdalene was "the apostle to the apostles". Do you agree with this?
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Quoting from:
WOMEN IN ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY: NEW DISCOVERIES
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...
UNDERMINING WOMEN'S PROMINENCE
"Women's prominence did not, however, go unchallenged. Every variety of ancient Christianity that advocated the legitimacy of women's leadership was eventually declared heretical, and evidence of women's early leadership roles was erased or suppressed.
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"This erasure has taken many forms. Collections of prophetic oracles were destroyed. Texts were changed. For example, at least one woman's place in history was obscured by turning her into a man! In Romans 16:7, the apostle Paul sends greetings to a woman named Junia. He says of her and her male partner Andronicus that they are "my kin and my fellow prisoners, prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me." Concluding that women could not be apostles, textual editors and translators transformed Junia into Junias, a man.
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"Or women's stories could be rewritten and alternative traditions could be invented. In the case of Mary Magdalene, starting in the fourth century, Christian theologians in the Latin West associated Mary Magdalene with the unnamed sinner who anointed Jesus' feet in Luke 7:36-50. The confusion began by conflating the account in John 12:1-8, in which Mary (of Bethany) anoints Jesus, with the anointing by the unnamed woman sinner in the accounts of Luke. Once this initial, erroneous identification was secured, Mary Magdalene could be associated with every unnamed sinful woman in the gospels, including the adulteress in John 8:1-11 and the Syro-phoenician woman with her five and more "husbands" in John 4:7-30. Mary the apostle, prophet, and teacher had become Mary the repentant whore. This fiction was invented at least in part to undermine her influence and with it the appeal to her apostolic authority to support women in roles of leadership."
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Now, if the prominence of women was undermined, or 'rolled back', as you say, by men later ... what ELSE in scripture and doctrine has been undermined, rolled back, changed, altered, etc.?

-- posted by Migisi