Protestantism

» redback - What do you want Christians to do?

In response to What do you want Christians to do? posted by BrianTubbs:

Every so often, I gain a tenuous belief we are increasing understanding within this VERY small circle. But then my grasp slips. I neither hold 'Christians' up on a pedestal for genuflection nor purchase specially steel-capped boots for kicking.

I can't and won't speak on behalf of "all the atheists, agnostics, and/or critics of Christianity" not least because they are several, disparate, rag tag groups of people...and individuals. A critic of Christianity may even be a Christian as I'm understanding dialogue. But suffice to say, pedestals don't await them either.

Nor do I expect you to speak on behalf of your colleagues let alone global Christianity. If you have read that into any of my posts, I'm sorry. If you haven't read that into any of my posts, why must I apologise etc? I could think of a reactive 3C challenge to Christians if it would help but methinks your frustration threshholds aren't even helped whenever I've sympathised with your position here.

"Must I, as a Christian pastor, take responsibility for everyone in the world who claims to be a Christian - in that I must bear the guilt and/or shame of any wrong deed done by a self-professed Christian?"

Must a Christian and all others in 2007 bear the guilt and shame of a wrong deed done by ancient man? Your imperatives are based on the Bible, aren't they? Mine aren't.

I do feel shame at what some so-called members of our community do whether or not Christianity is invoked...so Christians are NOT singled out. I mentioned in another area of suite101 how nice it would be if those I cared about cared more about some of these things too BUT I for one don't believe it's part of the global rights and responsibilities in 2007.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - What do you want Christians to do?

In response to What do you want Christians to do? posted by BrianTubbs:
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What is it that you all want from Christians?
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I expect each of you to face up the the challenges that the rest of us see in our personal experiences.
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Instead, you seem to want to fault us for not believing that the Bible is the Revealed Word of God in some sense of thought or another.
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When the going gets tough, it seems most of the churchies run and hide complaining that there is no reason to deal with the foolishness or antagonism of the un-churched.
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No one is trying to stop you from having your say. I watched some turkey giving a talk to the FRC (Family Research Council?) yesterday claiming that he didn't have a legal right to hold office because he was a Christian and his audience cheered him on. THAT was an outright lie and it is perpetrated by many. It looks to me that your point about Hitler is turned around a little. But, I doubt that you can see that.
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For me? I want you to stand up and to explain yourself without trying to prove you are correct using the Bible as your source for reality.
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For example, speaking to the idea of the Social Gospel of Jesus Christ in the thread that is provided is a good idea. Thanks.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - To redback

In response to What do you want Christians to do? posted by redback:

Every so often, I gain a tenuous belief we are increasing understanding within this VERY small circle. But then my grasp slips. I neither hold 'Christians' up on a pedestal for genuflection nor purchase specially steel-capped boots for kicking.

I have no problem with your approach, redback. You seem to assume that I have you in mind with these questions. I don't. We're fine.

» Migisi - To redback

In response to To redback posted by BrianTubbs:

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If not Red, then who did you have in mind?

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Who I have in mind

In response to To redback posted by Migisi:

What triggered the post was Pink. It seems that he quite often starts up discussions that are very critical of evangelical Christianity. But it's broader than just him. I find that critics of Christianity are getting more aggressive in our society overall. See Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins - to name a few. What is it that they want us evangelicals to do?

» Brian Tubbs - Appreciate it, Pink

In response to What do you want Christians to do? posted by pink101:

I appreciate the answers, Pink. My comments....

I expect each of you to face up the the challenges that the rest of us see in our personal experiences.

Give me some examples as to how you see some of us failing in this.

Instead, you seem to want to fault us for not believing that the Bible is the Revealed Word of God in some sense of thought or another.

Truth be told, I find fault with anybody who disagrees with me. Seriously...I believe the Bible. Others here do not. And that will be reflected in our discussions. I understand that.

When the going gets tough, it seems most of the churchies run and hide complaining that there is no reason to deal with the foolishness or antagonism of the un-churched.

I don't see anyone running and hiding here. If I seem to "hide," it's usually because I'm busy. My schedule has picked up of late, and I can't actively participate in all the discussion threads here on a daily basis.

No one is trying to stop you from having your say.

I strongly disagree with this. Perhaps you aren't, but there are plenty of secularists out there - whatever label you want to use (secular progressive, secular humanist, secular agnostic, whatever) - that are trying to silence or at least marginalize traditional, evangelical Christians.

I watched some turkey giving a talk to the FRC (Family Research Council?) yesterday claiming that he didn't have a legal right to hold office because he was a Christian and his audience cheered him on.

Sounds like an outrageous exaggeration to me as well, but I would like to see the full context and transcript.

It looks to me that your point about Hitler is turned around a little. But, I doubt that you can see that.

I don't, unless you are referring to the ridiculous lie that's so often told - the one where Hitler was allegedly a Christian. People that believe that are either malevolent, ignorant, or hopelessly gullible - or some combination of those qualities.

For me? I want you to stand up and to explain yourself without trying to prove you are correct using the Bible as your source for reality.

Hmmmm....let's break this sentence down. You want me to "stand up and explain" myself. I think I've done that. Yes? No?

You want me to do so ("stand up and explain" myself) "without trying to prove [I am] correct...." Well, now, everyone SHOULD try to substantiate his or her opinions, should they not? Everyone should cite evidence, logic, etc. to bolster their arguments. In this sense, everyone should try to prove they are correct.

Finally, you say I shouldn't use the Bible as my "source of reality." Well, first of all, if you take the time to read my articles - particularly my apologetics articles - I do not simply cite the Bible in support of my positions. I cite science, philosophy, history, archaeology, etc. to bolster my positions. I don't just cite the Bible.

That said, even if you don't accept the Bible as the "Revealed Word of God," don't go to the OTHER extreme and dismiss it completely. There are many, many, many, many parts of the Bible that have been PROVEN correct! And no part of the Bible has been conclusively disproven. That's a pretty good track record, and it (I think) has earned it some credibility. Wouldn't you say?

» _Boanerges_ - response for Jeff

In response to What do you want Christians to do? posted by redback:

I could think of a reactive 3C challenge to Christians if it would help but methinks your frustration threshholds aren't even helped whenever I've sympathised with your position here.

It would help, for me.. So, please state those as so I know where your thoughts are headed!.....

Must a Christian and all others in 2007 bear the guilt and shame of a wrong deed done by ancient man?

If god's word is true, then yes. If it is not true, who really cares for such mindless stuff.. (rhetorical) But.. if you believe that God has expressed His thoughts, etc in the bible, then, of course, because... that is the claim... If not, then what does it matter..

-- posted by _Boanerges_

» redback - To redback

In response to To redback posted by BrianTubbs:

Seeming to ASS-U-ME is a risk here but with the great expanse of your comment, I did think I was included somewhere...sniffle.

Maybe you were getting ideas for the doctorate you may tackle any time soon?

I was instead going to respond to Pink's totally unpredictable post in another topic but I never know when he's taking the Mickey..of himself...or us.

-- posted by redback

» redback - response for Jeff

In response to response for Jeff posted by _Boanerges_:

G'day Boanerges!

"...So, please state those..."

The key part of my quote you cited is... ...if it would help... ...Brian resolve HIS questions. My thoughts don't intend to incite palindromic argument so I didn't detail them. But simply any 'what do you want from me' cry here can surely be repeated by the "other side".

Posters can respond like I did but then the above question from either side is qualified as being directed to all those "out there" including offline. The comments are clearly directed to the 'us' of suite101 OR is there a belief millions visit here for silent reading?

Maybe that's part of Brian's frustration...to isolate what's intended for him and what's intended globally. As I replied to a post I thought included me, I empathise.

"If god's word is true, then yes"
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Glad to see you answered Brian's question re the bearing of guilt & shame. It also reminds me of the Christian's need to turn the other three cheeks...a need I don't exploit. And to my post in the 'social gospel' topic which is adding context for me.

Are you like TV ad man Tim who cries: "But I know you want more!" or is this a reasonable response. ABC

-- posted by redback

» _Boanerges_ - response for Jeff

In response to response for Jeff posted by redback:

Are you like TV ad man Tim who cries: "But I know you want more!" or is this a reasonable response

personally... it makes no difference to me what you or anyone thinks or believes.. I mean... why waste the energy on useless mind dribble...

I asked.. I suppose you answered...

see ya in about a week or two.. (boringness has prevailed yet again!)

:)

-- posted by _Boanerges_