Protestantism

» pink101 - Preacher as President

In response to Preacher as President posted by redback:

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our Prime Minister said he & his Party was the only one with any chance of influence over whoever's in power in the USA.
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Heh heh heh
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What a relief....

-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Take America back for God

In response to Take America back for God posted by BrianTubbs:

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Christians wanting to move America toward a stronger morality have as much right to play in the policy sandbox as the AFL-CIO, the NAACP, the People for the American Way, the ACLU, MoveOn.org, and a host of other groups.
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Oh, I agree, and that might be the problem.
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You're talking about the market place of ideas and that we, here in America, interact through a process of competition. We compete for positions of power. Power is defined as the ability to impose one's will on another in opposition to their will. Take a look at those groups you've laid down in your post. Are any of them related to any Constitutional restraints? I think so.
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I don't have the quotation handy; but, Max Weber makes a point of how Faith is the only discipline that is able to hold absolute truths--Science is unable to make absolute claims. When push comes to shove in public debate, Religionists are able to prove their points beyond the shadow of any doubt whatsoever. That puts secularism as a distinct disadvantage. Anyone who has their mind opened enought to recognize this simple fact of life is able to understand the threat of Religionism in Politics.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Hate group factors

In response to Hate group factors posted by BrianTubbs:
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... I can attest to the factor there were some influences IN that church that put a spin on Christianity which wasn't very healthy. But those influences weren't from the Bible - they were from other aspects of the southern, rural culture.
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So, you affirm that Christian folks who you say put a 'spin on Christianity' - in addition to other aspects of the southern rural culture - promoted racial segregation. I agree. I did say that I thought they were 'linked'.
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I thought this study was interesting for you to consider, as a pastor:
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THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
CHURCH MEMBERSHIP AND PREJUDICE
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pr...
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(quote) Studies of prejudice during the 1960's:
"One of the main researchers, G.W. Allport, developed the concept of intrinsic and extrinsic religion:
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Intrinsic religious belief:
- views God as loving, supportive, forgiving.
- views each person as unique and special.
- inclusive in vision; views all people as their neighbors
- views death positively
- looks upon religion as a search for truth
- numerically small
- exhibit low levels of prejudice.
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Extrinsic religious belief:
- views God as stern, vindictive and punitive.
- views people in terms of social categories: sex, age, status.
- exclusionist in vision; views their in-group as their neighbors
- views death negatively
- looks upon religion for its utilitarian value, as a means to other ends.
- "make up the bulk of churchgoers"
- "manifest high levels of bigotry."
(quotes in italics: Bernard Spilka, et al., "The psychology of religion: An empirical approach," Prentice-hall, (1983), Pages 18 & 19; 270 to 274)
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"Researchers found that most parishioners exhibited an extrinsic religious belief system, and that these principles led to a high level of prejudice and bigotry.
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"Various investigators such as Strommen, Tisdale Vanecko, Gorsuch and Aleshire "also noted more prejudiced people among fundamentalists," compared to other Evangelicals, and followers of mainline and liberal denominations." (end quotes)
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So, all that southern Fundy preaching -- about vengeance, fire and brimstone, hell and damnation, and fear of the Lord -- encourages and feeds 'extrinsic' belief, and breeds more bigots. Think on that.
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You claim prejudism doesn't come from the Bible. I say it does -- against women, gays, people of color, the handicapped, mentally ill, nonChristians, etc. Want verses and examples? I can provide them. How would that prejudism impact our country if Fundy Christians took total control of the Presidency, and Judiciary and Legislative branches? Dramatically! The aggressiveness of secularists today is only in equal response to the aggressiveness of the Fundies -- who's goal is to establish and secure forever a wholly (holy?) Christian state. They've said so.
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-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Linkage

In response to Hate group factors posted by Migisi:

So, you affirm that Christian folks who you say put a 'spin on Christianity' - in addition to other aspects of the southern rural culture - promoted racial segregation. I agree. I did say that I thought they were 'linked'.

I affirm that there are PEOPLE who have used Christianity - "put a spin on Christianity" - to promote racial segregation and other forms of hate and/or discrimination.

I reject - totally and completely reject - that hate, prejudice, and/or discrimination is what Christianity itself is about or what the Bible is about. What's more, it's not what Christian fundamentalism (properly and historically speaking) is about.

» Brian Tubbs - Follow up on Hate

Migisi, one of the aspects of this whole discussion (and we're stepping beyond simply 'religion in politics' here -and moving into religion itself) is how we define and understand "Hate" and "Love" or "Tolerance" and "Intolerance."

I want you to correct me if I'm mistating you (and I invite anyone else who is sympathetic to your view to do the same), but it SEEMS to me that what you're ultimately saying is...

To call anyone a sinner and/or any act a "sin" is hateful and mean-spirited.

To say that anyone and/or any act falls short of the glory of God is exclusionary and breeds discrimination.

If you follow the above two lines of thought to their logical end, then what you will end up with is a view that says: "To disagree with - or to publicly state your disagreement with - a person's views and/or lifestyle is to hate them."

If that is where you are coming from, then Christianity is a religion of "hate." But I hope that is NOT where you are coming from.

» pink101 - Linkage

In response to Linkage posted by BrianTubbs:
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[Hate and prejudice are] not what Christian fundamentalism (properly and historically speaking) is about.
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I think that's a correct statement; but, Fundamentalism is all about the purification process of ridding organized religion of modernists. We know that to be a fact both properly and historically speaking according to the originators of Fundamentalism--men like Charles Fuller and Frank Norris who were two of the main crusaders for Fundamentalism. I--personally--have seen and heard Frank Norris speak in the church where I attended as a child.
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But, I have to add that hate and prejudice are often the direct results of the teachings of Fundamentalism.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Follow up on Hate

In response to Follow up on Hate posted by BrianTubbs:
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To call anyone a sinner and/or any act a "sin" is hateful and mean-spirited.
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That's not necessarily so. But, it is part of an organized attempt to frighten people into subjection.
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To say that anyone and/or any act falls short of the glory of God is exclusionary and breeds discrimination.
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Naw. That's a distorting spin. The thing that creates discrimination and prejudice is the idea that God has a Chosen People. That is precisely where the prejudice comes in.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Modernism

In response to Linkage posted by pink101:

I would modify your statement to say that fundamentalism was about removing modernism (not modernists) - and now postmodernism - from Christianity.

» pink101 - Modernism

In response to Modernism posted by BrianTubbs:

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And, what, please explain, do you mean by the use of the word, modernism?
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And, you and me both being postmodernists, what do you mean by removing us from Christianity?
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What Fundamentalism did was to list a set of Fundamentals to which I person must confess or they were assumed to not be true Christians. YOU know that as well as anyone.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Fundamentalism

In response to Modernism posted by pink101:

I concede that I've been influenced by modernism and postmodernism, but I do not consider myself a postmodernist.

As to fundamentalism...

You are mostly right, but there's a slight spin or edge to the way you word things that doesn't quite square with the facts. You are right that many, many, many fundamentalists consider their litmus test to be the deciding factor as to who is or is not a true Christian. NO WAY I can argue that with you.

However, what fundamentalism (classically speaking) was intended to be (again, I'm a big believer in original intent) is the following...

According to the Bible, these are the rock-solid tenets of the Christian faith from which we cannot retreat.

Ultimately, it's up to God who goes to heaven and hell. All we (as evangelicals or fundamentalist or whatever you want to call me) can do is explain what the Bible says about that. I don't assign anyone to anywhere.