Protestantism

» pink101 - It Is Nuts

In response to So, It Might Be posted by Brother_Jones:
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"...it is nuts to think that [society] is where we ultimately get morality. High, low, or in-between."
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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morali...
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Society shapes morality

I'll grant that society SHAPES and influences morality. This is why some cultures believe we should love people and others think it's okay to EAT people. However...

Each and every human being has an inherent moral impulse - one implanted in their conscience from the very beginning. Each and every person has a concept or realization inherent to them that there EXISTS "right" and "wrong."

Christians believe this comes from God, which is what Paul teaches in Romans 1-2.

» pink101 - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by BrianTubbs:
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Read my post # 1.
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But, I think the comments made by Brother Jones point to a serious problem we are experiencing in our present culture.
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There are groupings of people among us that believe their morality is above society--that society some how presents us with the profane. The claim is made by these groupings that society is not worthy of our respect. It is obvious that Brother Jones has very little respect--if any--for society as an authoritative source.
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The claim that all morality comes from religious faith and that secular society is, in and of itself, godless leaves us with two groups of people--the moral and the immoral--the religious right and the secular--the good and the evil. That doesn't exist in Christian culture any more than it exists in Jewish or Islamic cultures. It is part of the problem that exists in Iraq today where the religious believe they are separating the sacred from the profane.

-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by pink101:

The claim is made by these groupings that society is not worthy of our respect. It is obvious that Brother Jones has very little respect--if any--for society as an authoritative source.

That is a bit wrong headed thinking. It depends on what the society did in reference to authority. Of course, I would not hold in high regard a society of folks who based their decisions on the precepts of humanism. I grant that you have a right to voice disapproval on anybody that believes in godly government. Whatever influences a person will guide their vote. You are apparently hoping for a completely secular society that does not look to any god for influence. But you have proven yourself to be a pretty godless person. That is one approach to morality and government that I would probably think about eventually moving to another country if folks like you started being in the vast majority.

the oldtimer.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Seems Quite Clear

In response to Society shapes morality posted by Brother_Jones:
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Looks like you ate a double portion of Wheaties for breakfast today.
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Seems quite clear you put your authority over society.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Seems Quite Clear

In response to Seems Quite Clear posted by pink101:

Seems quite clear you put your authority over society.

How could that be clear? Review the story of Daniel and his friends who refused disobey the Lord and bow to an Idol and they were cast into the fiery furnace.

the oldtimer.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» redback - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by BrianTubbs:

"Each and every person has a concept or realization inherent to them that there EXISTS "right" and "wrong."

I'm still not persuaded by this approach. According to the bad luck of genetics etc etc, many are born without or lose it (fully or partly) through no wilful act on their part. At least that's what I accept on available data. Unless one is a Scientologist where belief and reality on this aspect seems mutually exclusive??

OK...you got me to read Romans 1-2. Can you or anyone pin it down better for me, than following:

I read: God says you are equally guilty as the other person so are hypocritical if you complain or judge? And gives examples. Isn't this more about instruction on morality than our inherent morality-impulse. Aren't we inherently sinful? Could it impact on one's insight sufficient to impair morality?? Our (inherent?) impulse for disobedience conflicts with our impulse that free will means only good use of free will is intended?

It makes sense to me that a sense of morality is something we need to work on from our own errors and experiences...based on such things as the Bible as a moral compass. If we believe all rules are black and white and an exhaustive list, one needs to develop nothing...just obey or not.

There are too many streams within my sense of 'society' that makes society mainly a good...or bad influence. Are we tribal or herdal? The dynamics of 'society' could mean WE also shape morality to society...not "...I'll grant that society SHAPES and influences morality."

It may have been unintended but there's something about the way we express things that denies personal accountability. It's not semantics. The mentally ill person is overlooked to their adverse judgement. Probably God may empathise with the concept of accountability of a human rather than one's nebulous or institutionalised society?

And I keep thinking it's 'religion' of religionism, not Christian faith or spirituality that Pink alludes to here.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by redback:

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If we think about the relationship we have with society, we can eventually understand that it is a spiritual relationship--not physical.
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We are born into society and it is already active before we even recognize that we are a person in the making.
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I'm born in the American society that is slightly different than the Canadian one. Jeff is born in Australia. Osama Bin Laden born in Syria and Putin in Russia. Each one of us has a different idea of right and wrong to some degree--finer or looser. It is our separate societies that shape our final understanding of our morality just as it shapes our separate idea of ethics and the law. Unless we are able to grasp that simple concept of society, we're out on a limb.
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Society works on the individual and the individual works on their groups and the groups work on society--it's a relationship we share with each other. And, the relationship is a spirit. So, we KNOW a sense of right and wrong within us--it comes to us through the spirit of our society.
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That may not be the absolute truth of the matter; but, it is a well accepted paradigm in social theory.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Secular Society Is Profane

In response to Seems Quite Clear posted by Brother_Jones:
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What seems quite clear to me, Brother Jones, is that you set your religious beliefs about humanity above the relationships that human beings have with each other. You seem quite clearly set on a journey in which you hold the Bible to be superior to any other reality that might express itself to you. I think I've read enough of your stuff to know that you think secular society is profane.
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by pink101:

I see a similarity between the eventualities being discussed here...and that may put me out on "your limb". Eventually I will get it, if that is my lot in life.

My sense of community or society is as expressed above and it's setting in wet concrete. If I close my eyes and see a theoretical society where there is a common purpose including a common list of what is frowned upon etc...but I don't see this in our tribes (society). I see it in our herds (community). Yep, there may well be a communal sense of spirituality about something as one of the dynamics. Yep, there is a learned experience in our development and that can come from 'society...or despite it, IMO. Our sense of right and wrong can be highlighted when we see a society being 'wrong' so in that sense, society can confirm a truth or lead by bad example. But tis multi-dimensional to me.

Given that you're responding to my comments to Brian, in context, I sense you don't concede Brian a point here nor Brian you. Maybe I'm wrong.

But just to add to my earlier comments about the forgotten people. These people are not clearly included in either the God or society model you and Brian separating them.

Adding to those who are mentally ill, there are people with severe personality disorder, severe intellectual disorder, profoundly uneducated or miseducated...and those with borderline life skills.

They can be forgotten when it comes to the unrealistic expectations we may put on these things called 'society' and the God-given inherent sense of right and wrong. 'Either/or' OR 'complementary' is the question I ponder.

And I suspect a lot of the questions we ask ourselves today about these things would have been far simpler to answer when Adam and his tribe were no more than 10-15 people who all knew each other etc.

-- posted by redback