Protestantism

» pink101 - Conceding Any Points

In response to Society shapes morality posted by redback:
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The idea of conceding any points regarding our attempts to discuss morality at this level is difficult at best.
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The overall issues are too complex for us to even make some points and, especially, the one that society shapes our moralities.
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Our parents teach us our basic sense of morality and that gets augmented when we begin to reach out to others that also have an impact on our sensibilities. Morality can be seen as a consequentiality of our relationships with each other in the groups we join during our life time. And, morality evolves and devolves according to the conditions under which we carry on our every day experiences. When we run into persons who may be handicapped in one way or another, we consequently adjust our morality to include their plight--depending on our liberality, that is.
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So, it is difficult for any of us to make a simple one truth for all situations statement about the subject.
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Society--it's a complicated thing to understand, let alone to explain.
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But, we CAN talk about it. And, talking does help us understand.
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A magistrate? You must have given a great deal of thought to these ideas.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by redback:
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They can be forgotten when it comes to the unrealistic expectations we may put on these things called 'society' and the God-given inherent sense of right and wrong. 'Either/or' OR 'complementary' is the question I ponder.
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I ponder the immigrants who have difficulty adjusting and integrating into a specific culture (Judeo-Christian society here) - even when they are not mentally, emotionally, or educationally challenged. In our 'melting pot' here, there are societies within society. In fact, a sovereign nation (Native American) exists within a nation. It's an extemely complex system, containing a myriad of cultural differences. Which society shapes our morality, or do we take concepts from them all? Example: the Iroquois Indians heavily influenced our early concepts for our Constitution. http://usinfo.state.gov/scv/Archive/2005...
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And I suspect a lot of the questions we ask ourselves today about these things would have been far simpler to answer when Adam and his tribe were no more than 10-15 people who all knew each other etc.
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Even so, within small families, these questions often go unanswered, no?

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Society Is Free Floating

In response to Society shapes morality posted by Migisi:
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But, after all is said and done, we do live in a greater society.
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So, that fact of life must be taken into consideration.
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The idea that society shapes our morality is mitigated by Jeff's point which seems to be that we, in turn, shape our society. For example, right now, the neo-conservative movement is having an enormous impact on our morality. It is seen by many that justifiably killing people is mostly a matter of having them declared as our enemies by some higher authority in our state. And, the collective thought (you brought that up) is that an unbridled and unrepentant capitalism is the way to go. I'm sure Carnegie's corpse is beginning to work a smile on its face. Maybe we should do away with our government all together and contract it out to the Amway and Blackwater operations? Then, the DeVos/Prince family can make even more money? The sky is the limit when there are no goals.
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Our society is free floating at present. "Survival Of The Fittest" is the operative slogan. Straight out Utilitarianism--Social Darwinianism ala Bush and Company. And, here comes Hillary.
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The people have been silenced.
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What's next from the Big Boys?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Society Is Free Floating

In response to Society Is Free Floating posted by pink101:

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The people have been silenced.
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How and when have you been silenced? How and when have I? How about the grocer, the bartender, the bank clerk? The liberal, the neo-con, the moderate, the religious, the secular -- all of these ~are~ 'the people'. The question always is: who is SHOUTING the loudest?

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - We The People

In response to Society Is Free Floating posted by Migisi:
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How and when have you been silenced?
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We are silenced when our representatives in the halls of government ignore us in their decision making.
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The Iraq War is an example. And, when Bush orders military strikes on Iran, we will see more silencing.
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I should have capitalized people in my statement, "The people have been silenced", to designate We The People.
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Off to the races. Later.
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by Migisi:

"there are societies within society..."

And terms within terms. And neighbourhoods and communities within society. I don't have any problems that other concepts of society like Pink suggests, exist. It's meant to be a defining term, isn't it? So, tis what you do and can do with the definition. It's a term that gives us some sense of belonging too...and our subjective sense of belonging needs a special purpose sense of 'society' too. Cricket players can join chess clubs?

"Even so, within small families, these questions often go unanswered, no?"

Of course. I was just thinking the First Family may have done better.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - Society shapes morality

In response to Society shapes morality posted by redback:

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It's a term that gives us some sense of belonging too...and our subjective sense of belonging needs a special purpose sense of 'society' too.
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In the sense that I am talking about society here, it is the overall society.
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Australia has a national society as does Canada, the United States and Mexico.
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Our national societies operate for the benefit of the individual member. At least, that is the ideal. When that fails to be operative, the society begins to atrophy.
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It's somewhat like our physical body in that when one organ fails, the rest of the body begins to give in as well. When society doesn't see to the least of its members, the rest of the members are in trouble.
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - Conceding Any Points

In response to Conceding Any Points posted by pink101:

your preceding post jumped in while editing and there's still a faulty dial-up....sorry.

Migisi's comment re immigrants is an added example to the mix intended in my post. Basicaly, I'm suggesting this is not about a half-dozen people or issues easily exempted from definitions. Nor only a one-way reactive stream.

I agree with you that there's a whole range of impacting issues...if I read you right. Sure, we can dissect 'society' down into terms that fit but for me, it's rarely useful. There is 'society' as it should be and society as it is...that should not be confused, methinks. And we have the luxury here of waxing philosophic on these things.

"When we run into persons who may be handicapped in one way or another we consequently adjust our morality to include their plight..." Well, we "adjust" thinking to cross a busy street on a task by task basis?

If we use 'WE' in the royal sense, this happens everyday, doesn't it including when 'WE' run into those 'WE' think are handicapped in THEIR way of thinking. Just WE think it's the other one needing to 'adjust'. Another 'WE' I have no sense of belonging to.

Do some, many, most, all of us...need to 'adjust' or believe we need to...when facing them? More's the pity if we do. I don't know if I disagree with the overall gist of what you say...but tones and flavours??

Brian says our morality starter comes from God...we're born with it...if I read him right. You say it comes from society if I read you right. What I see: "Let's talk about 'morality' through the prism of 'society'? Nope, let's talk about morality through the prism of God?" Me, I think in terms of morality...if that really is the topic...and then see how society and God fit.

Pink. I was a 'special magistrate' covering administrative law...social welfare law. No extra insight here but I do believe all our insights add to the jigsaw puzzle. My baggage is focusing on an 'outcome'. "Sounds great...can anyone use it?" And 'ideal' society concepts ARE understood.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - What Society Could Be

In response to Conceding Any Points posted by redback:
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Things happened in the eighteenth century that have had an enormous impact on the history of the world ever since--more so than most of us take into consideration. At least, I think so.
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Most of those things emanated from, both, the North American Continent and from France where--in each place--some pretty heavy intellectual thinking was going on. Many names can be named. For some reason that escapes me, there has been a great down playing of the work involved so that some idea of anti-intellectualism now pervades our thoughts--eggheads and the like are, more or less, excess baggage in an otherwise carefree world. People don't want to get caught thinking about concepts considered to be important unless they are either bread and butter issues or entertainment in some sense of the word or another--sports and slapstick.
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Is it what society is or should be or is it what society could be?
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Right now, our leaders are promoting a sort of a laissez faire ideology to us.
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Laissez faire except in the sense that government is paving the way for an unbridled and unrepentant form of capitalism. Past achievements in social welfare are being swept aside; de-constructed and a dis-compassionate attitude is engendered that teaches us a utilitarianism in which survival belongs to the fittest. The rest of us can go to hell for all intent and purposes. The idea is that those who earn it deserve to keep it regardless of whose back on it is on which they ride. The winners call it freedom and the losers don't count--they're illegal and deserve to be concentrated in camps from which they can be removed and sent back to the poverty from which they came--god damns them anyway for their laziy and incompetent ways. Other than that, they can work for substandard pay and show their gratitude for getting it.
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Society is being engineered for major change by way of a new morality that closes its eyes to the socially handicapped.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Moral Impulse

In response to Society shapes morality posted by redback:

Have you (or has anyone else here) read C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity?

Just curious, since Lewis develops this argument quite extensively - and, I think, effectively.