Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Give It Some Serious Thought

In response to Give It Some Serious Thought posted by pink101:

Why is it, Pink, that you cite the parts of the NT that suit you and ignore the others? Jesus very clearly associates himself time and again with God. This is why on at least two occasions, crowds took up stones to stone him. And it's why at the end they crucified him.

And get off this business about me trying to separate you from your inalienable rights. Hooey! You're right in that I have no authority or power to do that. Nor do I have a desire to do so. Whether God accepts you into heaven and/or into a relationship with Him is His (God's) call, not mine. You can call yourself whatever you want.

» pink101 - Give It Some Serious Thought

In response to Give It Some Serious Thought posted by BrianTubbs:

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Whether God accepts [anyone] into heaven and/or into a relationship with Him is His (God's) call, not mine.
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Gonna answer my question?

-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Your Response Is A Dodge

In response to Give It Some Serious Thought posted by BrianTubbs:

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Your response to my post is a dodge--you've ignored my response to you with a flip of your wrist.
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But, so what?
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Should anyone really expect you would handle the tough questions?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Your Response Is A Dodge

In response to Your Response Is A Dodge posted by pink101:

Most of these questions have been asked and answered. The same things keep coming up, just repackaged. You are also getting a bit schizophrenic. Sometimes, you compliment me for facing the "tough questions" and at other times you say I do not. Which is it? Make up your mind.

The reason that I've stepped back a bit, Pink, from discussions like these is that they don't go anywhere. I've already (on SEVERAL occasions) answered questions similar to what you're posing to me now.

I believe in the Bible, and I believe that the Bible teaches that a person must "call upon the name of the Lord to be saved" (Romans 10:13). I believe that Jesus Christ PERSONALLY is the "Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6) and that a deep and abiding relationship with God - one that will guarantee the Spirit's presence in THIS life and our presence with God in Heaven in the next - is contingent upon one's making Jesus Christ Lord and Savior of his or her life. That is what I believe, because that is what the Bible says.

You've made it clear - repeatedly - that you do not accept biblical authority on matters like this. And that you interpret the Bible different from the evangelical perspective. So, what more can be said, Pink? We're just going in circles here (again).

» pink101 - In Depth Thinking

In response to Your Response Is A Dodge posted by BrianTubbs:
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You, previously, made this statement and asked this question, "Jesus claimed to be God, Pink. And he claimed to be the way to heaven (John 14:6). THAT was ultimately why he was crucified.
"Now, do you agree with Jesus? Do you believe [Jesus] was God or not?"
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Our of courtesy, I gave you a comprehensive answer. I could have answered in exactly the same way you have answered me and with the insulting kick in the shins of "schizoprhic". I did not dodge the importance of your sincerity by saying, "Most of these questions have been asked and answered. The same things keep coming up, just repackaged. You are also getting a bit schizophrenic.
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Think of how easy it would be to just give a straight answer.
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Your question about the deity of Jesus was posed in such a way that it is impossible to give a yes or no answer without an explanation.
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Jesus claimed to be in complete unity with God.
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The 14th chapter of John is not understood with a flick of the wrist. It carries heavy meanings worthy of in depth thinking.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - In Depth Thinking

In response to In Depth Thinking posted by pink101:

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The 14th chapter of John is not understood with a flick of the wrist. It carries heavy meanings worthy of in depth thinking.
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Supposedly, that is why so many preachers attend a school of higher learning before they are ordained, do you think?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Alright

In response to In Depth Thinking posted by pink101:

Pink, I'm testy, because you've shot some darts my way. The "schizophrenic" (my spelling is bad on words like that) comment was in response to your shot at me. Youv'e taken a couple of late. Anyway, be that as it may....

There are some parts of the Bible that are straightforward. Sometimes, we overanalyze things. It is not always the mark of intelligent scholarship to be constantly probing beneath the surface. Sometimes, language can be straight-up. When I tell my wife "I love you," she doesn't need to do an exegesis on that to find out what I really mean by "love" and "you."

Likewise, there are parts of the Bible that are simple enough for even a child to understand. And then there are other parts that scholars CONTINUE to wrangle over. The Calvinism v. Arminianism controversy has tied more than a few theologians in a pretzel.

But verses like the following, Pink, are pretty straight-up:

Jesus telling Nicodemus that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Paul writing to the church at Rome: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

And later, "But God commended his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

And on and on. God's plan of salvation is pretty simple, and is found in verses throughout the New Testament.

I really believe that you are over-complicating it, and looking for deeper meanings that aren't always there. This feeling of mine isn't due to a lack of intelligence or education on my part (a subtle accusation you've made against me).

I'm pursuing a Master's Degree in Theology as I type this. Only a couple more classes to go, and I'll have it. And....I've studied the Bible most of my life. And I've read books on theology and Christianity from authors of different stripes - from Augustine to C.S. Lewis to Ravi Zacharias to John Shelby Spong.

At any rate, when Jesus tells the disciples in John 14 that he is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life," that's right after he tells them that he's going to the Father to "prepare a place for them." No ordinary human being has the authority or power to prepare a place for human beings in heaven.

Jesus' claims of divinity are throughout the Gospel accounts. Now, you can take the liberal, revisionist position that these claims of divinity were inserted LATER and were not spoken by Jesus himself. That's a weak position, to be sure, but it's at least stronger than trying to somehow argue that the divine claims aren't really divine claims.

Pink, I understand you grew up in Baptist circles, and I know that many (a great many) of the ultra-fundamentalist, old-timey type Baptist churches from the 1950s, 60s, and 70s (and even through today - those that maintain that heritage) aren't known for their "deep thinking." I could write a book on that.

I appreciate and UNDERSTAND the fact that you've thrown off the shackels of narrow-minded, intellectually vacuous thinking that has so often characterized much of fundamentalism.

But...this doesn't mean that they are wrong on everything. Some of their central, fundamental claims ARE defensible intellectually and spiritually. Not only defensible, but highly probable.

I went through two significant periods of doubt and questioning in my life, where I put my views on the table. I looked at them as honestly as I could. I don't want to dedicate my life to a lie. I don't want to live a certain way, because I was "conditioned" to do so. Because I was brainwashed to do so, or because I just happened to run in that sphere or circle.

So, I put the claims of Christianity under the microscope. I read skeptics, agnostics, atheists, etc. I explored the highlights of the world's major religions. I looked at the evidence for God (or against Him). Same with the other claims of Christianity.

And all that has served to STRENGTHEN, not weaken, my Christian faith and my respect for the Bible as the Word of God. Now, your journey may be different, and that's between you and God.

» Migisi - Alright

In response to Alright posted by BrianTubbs:

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Jesus' claims of divinity are throughout the Gospel accounts.
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Hello Theology Master.
Who wrote this?
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"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
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"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
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Yep... David (Psalm 2:7 and 12). Apparently, God had begotten a divine Son named David before he begat Jesus.
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Jesus co-equal to God? Jesus-IS-God?
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"Jesus said: 'I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.' (John 14:28). If Jesus was a personage of God, or God incarnate, how could God be greater than himself?
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In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus "fell on his face and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me." (Mathew 26:39). Was he praying to himself? When he worshiped God in the temple, was he worshiping himself? When he talked about God, was he talking about himself?
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"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16). Jesus often said he'd been sent. He didn't send himself. And he made many references to himself as being his Father's 'servant'. Mark 10: "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.'" Clearly, he saw himself as 'less' than, not 'equal to', God. Jesus never said 'I am God'. The titles Son of God, servant, Son of Man, Son of David, Lord, Rabbi, Christ all had particular meaning in Hebrew culture.

Jesus said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) NOT three gods in one, but only ONE God. The Trinity is a later Christian invention: Father, Son, and Spirit = three gods = polytheism. That was pagan and unacceptable. So they rolled the three into one god, thus their religion would remain monotheistic.
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What's your text book say on these matters?

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Two quick things

In response to Alright posted by Migisi:

Migisi, I didn't say I was a theology master. This is where I feel I get bounced back-and-forth into extremes. Phil takes a shot at me, attacking my intellect and education. I defend myself, and then YOU criticize me (indirectly and politely) for being arrogant or prideful. I am at neither extreme.

I am a student of the Bible and of Christianity. Not a master. Just a student. I always hope to be a student, and I hope I never stop learning.

Second and last for now, the Trinity is found in Matthew 28, when Jesus tells the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." That's just ONE reference, Migisi. It was not added later. It's in the book! By "book," I mean Bible of course, not my seminary textbooks.

» Brian Tubbs - Trinity Overview

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianit...