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ProtestantismNicene Creed
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next » » Migisi - Truthfully In response to Truthfully posted by frodo68:
-- posted by Migisi » frodo68 - Truthfully Howdy.With respect.... They shouldn't be taught that... because it is not what the Church claims. But I'll get to that in a minute. If the church militant is the body of Christ, then there is a connection from a "relationship" standpoint. I don't mean this exclusively for Catholics... the notion of a "covenant" relationship is inherently one of a family bond... that we are in relationship with our maker as a body, not solely as individuals. There's really a catch22 in what you're saying. If you believe that being separated from the body condemns you... then why would you adopt proactices or beliefs that would result in that... but if you have such variant beliefs... why would you believe that the excommunication was of any effect? Here's the response of a canon lawyer when asked about the misconceptions re: excommunication: First, there is the idea that excommunication kicks one out of the Church. That is not right. There are ways to cancel one's Church membership, but excommunication isn't one of them. The analogy I use to explain it is that of a felon serving a long prison term; he's in prison, but he remains a citizen bound by the laws of his country. If he, say, owns property upon which he incurs taxes while in prison, he still owns the property and is still liable for the tax from prison; if he commits a crime in prison, he can be prosecuted for it, and so on. A felon loses certain important rights, obviously, like freedom of movement and the right to vote, but he is still a citizen. Similarly, an excommunicated person is still a member of the Church, but he or she has lost certain key rights attached to Church membership and is cut off from many of the activities and benefits of the Church. The second misconception is that people who die excommunicated go to hell. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't, but we don't know with certainty either way. In any case, the Church does not claim to exercise jurisdiction over the dead, and one's final fate is determined by God based on the life one leads. Of course, appearing before God for judgment in the state of excommunication from His Church on earth is not a good thing. -- posted by frodo68 » Migisi - Truthfully In response to Truthfully posted by pink101:. If interested in the details of excommunication, the Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty comprehensive. Excommunication for everything from apostacy and heresy to buying, reading, and possessing the wrong books. Naturally, it's long: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.h... . It originated with the Jews: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou... (quote) ... "After the Babylonian exile, the term herem began indicating the act of excommunicating people who disobeyed the law or authorities. If the elders and rabbis of a community believed a person to be disobedient, the offender was punished by being forced into isolation, removed from the community at large. The excommunication could last anywhere from a day to a lifetime, depending on the urgency of the convicted act. Once the allotted time has elapse the individual may return to the community as long as he repents for his actions. The Talmud alludes to twenty-four offenses punishable by excommunication. Some examples include: • uttering the name of God in vain • luring another person to sin • refusing to testify before a court at the allotted time • selling nonkosher meat as kosher meat • marrying a non-Jewish individual The Talmud forbids coming within six feet of a person who has been excommunicated. During medieval times, the laws of excommunication could be extended to the family of the person who was convicted of a crime. Additionally, there existed a weaker form of excommunication, called niddui that was applied for only thirty days. Even the threat of being excommunicated was employed to guarantee the acceptance and submission of the laws. . "The rituals surrounding the excommunication of an individual were quite astounding. The act was first announced by the blowing of the shofar in front of an open ark. The community would lament, holding black candles as if in mourning. The congregational leader would proceed to shout Biblical curses at the person being sentenced to herem. Finally a public warning was decreed forbidding all to associate with the convict as the community symbolically smothered the candles." (end quotes) -- posted by Migisi » _Boanerges_ - Truthfully In response to Truthfully posted by frodo68:The second misconception is that people who die excommunicated go to hell. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't, but we don't know with certainty either way.
No.... Salvation is given to WHOSOEVER believes... A human can do nothing to attain salvation, except to believe... Of course, appearing before God for judgment in the state of excommunication from His Church on earth is not a good thing. Jesus is the foundation of the Church. It is His Church. He did not claim any membership requirements, except to believe upon him for salvation.. Church membership will not bring anyone salvation. It will only bring to them - religion.... -- posted by _Boanerges_ » Migisi - Truthfully In response to Truthfully posted by frodo68:. If you believe that being separated from the body condemns you... then why would you adopt proactices or beliefs that would result in that... but if you have such variant beliefs... why would you believe that the excommunication was of any effect? . Excellent questions, Frodo! . In any case, the Church does not claim to exercise jurisdiction over the dead, . Seems they do. . IV. WHO CAN BE EXCOMMUNICATED? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.h... "...As the baptized cease, at death, to belong to the Church Militant, the dead cannot be excommunicated. Of course, strictly speaking, after the demise of a Christian person, it may be officially declared that such person incurred excommunication during his lifetime. Quite in the same sense he may be absolved after his death; indeed, the Roman Ritual contains the rite for absolving an excommunicated person already dead (Tit. III, cap. iv: Ritus absolvendi excommunicatum jam mortuum). However, these sentences or absolutions concern only the effects of excommunication, notably ecclesiastical burial." . Of course, appearing before God for judgment in the state of excommunication from His Church on earth is not a good thing. . You mean, excommunicated reformists like Martin Luther? And anyone who has published, purchased, read, or possess books specifically prohibited/condemned by the Letters, Bulls or Briefs from the Pope? Anyone who questions ~any~ Catholic church dogma and/or the infallablity and authority of the Pope? All Protestants, Modernists, Naturalists, Liberals, Moderate Rationalists, Socialists, etc. Anyone who has been or is a member of a 'secret society' - like Greek-letter college fraternities, the Masons (like our country's founding fathers and Presidents), the Odd-Fellows, Sons of Temperance, women's auxiliary orgs, etc. - regardless of their charitable service to society. Given the long list of offences for which one can be excommunicated, I imagine heaven will be quite empty after Judgement Day. -- posted by Migisi » pink101 - Truthfully In response to Truthfully posted by frodo68:. Well, Mr. Frodo, your post raises some important issues of doctrine. I'm sure you know that.  . Perhaps the main issue--dealing with religion and especially with Christianity as a Protestant system of belief--is the idea of how one attains or acquires Salvation and regardless of the side issue of what one believes Salvation to be. . The question IS about how Salvation is dispensed and it is as ancient as Hebrew Tribalism--membership in the group. . It abounds here among those who profess to be main line Christians, Boanerges, Brian, and Brother Jones. Their Salvation is a matter of group membership. They go out of their way to demean the idea that a person can be a true Christian unless he exhibits and expresses certain group characteristics. By the way, the word, abounds, means jumping up and down. They jump up and down claiming they hold the keys to relationship with God whoever and whatever God is. . So, IF a relationship with God comes to us through the membership we hold in some particular group, to be excommunicated from that group is to lose one's relationship with God. NOT that I believe that; but, for the intent and purposes of mainline Christianity, it does appear to be true. . And, as far as one having the ability to choose what group one might identify with? Well, if one is brought up in a closed system that teaches Absolute Truth, one cannot make that choice untill and unless some finger of fate intervenes in their life. Isn't THAT so? . . -- posted by pink101
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That is just not true. You couldn't be more wrong. If I'm kicking your shin, sorry, but you are totally misrepresenting my position. You get mad when people misrepresent you, so you'll have to accept that I strongly - STRONGLY - object to your mischaracterization above. My opinions, judgments, comments, etc. have absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. What's more, the Bible is clear that salvation is not a group experience or group dynamic. It's an INDIVIDUAL decision a person must make between him/her and God. They jump up and down claiming they hold the keys to relationship with God whoever and whatever God is. Wrong again. I don't hold any "keys" to heaven or hell, nor do I determine who has or doesn't have a relationship with God. » pink101 - Wrong, Pink, WRONG In response to Wrong, Pink, WRONG posted by BrianTubbs:
-- posted by pink101 « Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next » Please follow the guidelines set forth in the Suite101 Posting Etiquette when adding to the discussion. |
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Brian Tubbs
