Protestantism

» _Boanerges_ - Matt 9, 26

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by BrianTubbs:

Jesus said: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins...

-- posted by _Boanerges_

» pink101 - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by BrianTubbs:

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I thought I was plain with Brother Jones that I didn't "doubt" his statement and that I was just asking for references.
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Was I not clear?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Who gets forgiven/saved?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by BrianTubbs:
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It seems there are always qualifiers and conditions. In John, Jesus doesn't save the whole world ('all men'), but only those who believe in him or his name. In Wendell's quote, Jesus says he sheds his blood for 'many', not all.
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And forgiveness has conditions, and depends on the person's action: If we forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if we don't, they are not forgiven. But then it says if we hold anything against someone else and don't forgive them, ~we~ won't be forgiven. If we speak against the Son, we're forgiven, but if we speak against the Spirit, we won't ever be forgiven. If our brother sins, we're supposed to rebuke him, and then forgive him ~IF~ he repents. What IF he doesn't repent?
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These are Jesus' words, not his follower's.

-- posted by Migisi

» _Boanerges_ - What IF he doesn't repent?

In response to Who gets forgiven/saved? posted by Migisi:
What IF he doesn't repent?
Explains why "If we speak against the Son, we're forgiven, but if we speak against the Spirit, we won't ever be forgiven"

Why? I would ask you Mig, which comes first - belief or repentance?

The answer is: belief.....

If you do notg believe, you will not repent (means to turn away).

-- posted by _Boanerges_

» Brother_Jones - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by pink101:

I thought I was plain with Brother Jones that I didn't "doubt" his statement and that I was just asking for references.
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Was I not clear?

Not clear at all to me. So now you come saying that you don't doubt my statement? Which statement? My statement that the New Testament clearly demonstrates that Jesus went about forgiving men of their sins? And that through Jesus: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. (2Cor 5:19)

How does that fit in your belief that Jesus' life aim was to help folks reject a notion that God sent a Savior? Your belief system seems to hinge on the one idea that Jesus taught men to reject all religious authority, including the God of the bible. So far you have simply ignored the scriptures given that Jesus is forgiving men of their sins. It really doesn't fit in any way with your beliefs. Either Jesus is God or He is a nutcase. How would anyone try to demonstrate that they could forgive the sins of others when the sin was unrelated to them. It would be like me waking up one morning and deciding to forgive you for any and all harsh words you ever spoke to your family. How could I do that and be taken seriously? How could Jesus have been taken seriously when He forgave strangers?.. unless He proved to His followers that He was more than a just a man.

i am the Lord's oldtimer.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» Migisi - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by Brother_Jones:
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How could Jesus have been taken seriously when He forgave strangers?..unless He proved to His followers that He was more than a just a man.

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That's a good question. One I've thought about in relation to Catholic confession. A priest hears a stranger's sins, forgives the stranger for the sins they committed against other strangers, and then assigns them to do acts of penance as punishment. They assume vicarious authority to forgive and punish from Jesus - as the apostles did. Can you, as a true believer, do the same? Can you forgive a stranger for sins he committed not against you, but against others? Like forgiving the 9-11 terrorists for murdering 3,000 people you never knew? Doesn't Jesus require you to do this? If you could forgive them, wouldn't that make you more than just a man too?
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Just pondering your question.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brother_Jones - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by Migisi:

A priest hears a stranger's sins, forgives the stranger for the sins they committed against other strangers,

I can't comment on what Catholics do except to say that they are not following the New Testament examples of how to discover the grace of God. At least that has been my experience when their stories are related to me, as you have done.

Can you, as a true believer, do the same? Can you forgive a stranger for sins he committed not against you, but against others? Like forgiving the 9-11 terrorists for murdering 3,000 people you never knew?

I may have never known the terrorists, but what they did impacted most Americans.

If you stomp on my big toe, and I forgive you, that is one thing. But if I start forgiving you every time you tell me that you have stomped on somebody else big toe....well, what right do I have to do that..without even knowing or consulting the injured party? God hasn't given me or any man the right to forgive sins. I think by your very question, you can see why Catholics priests are held in light regard by the majority of people who follow the teachings of Jesus as opposed to church authority.

Doesn't Jesus require you to do this? If you could forgive them, wouldn't that make you more than just a man too?

We are taught to love our enemy and to pray for our enemy. Sometimes that enemy is another Christian who has gone off the deep end and gotten involved in honoring the worldly things of life like adultery, robbery, and all kinds of evil. Sometimes the enemy is us. And so we seek forgiveness from God? How does your god go about the area of forgiveness? Since we are not in the bible thread, maybe you can share a little about the One god you have mentioned. I am curious too.

i am the Lord's oldtimer.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» Brian Tubbs - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by Migisi:

Migisi, much of your frustration with and opposition to Christianity stems from your past experience with Catholicism. So many of your posts, including this one, have made that clear.

Even though a majority of self-described "Christians" identify themselves as Catholic worldwide, Catholic theology does NOT reflect biblical doctrine. The Catholic Church is predicated on a deeply and fundamentally flawed premise - namely that the Church is empowered to communicate divine revelation today in the same way that the authors of Scripture did in the apostolic era.

As such, those people (like yourself) who were brought up Catholic have been brought up in rituals, trappings, beliefs, etc. that - in many ways - do NOT reflect what Jesus and the apostles taught in the first century. Catholic Christianity, in other words, does not really reflect biblical Christianity.

The power to forgive sins rests with GOD, and NOT with the Church. The Catholic Church has NO power to forgive sins! Baptist churches have NO power to forgive sins. The difference is that Baptists understand that.

» Brian Tubbs - Shame on Many

It really is tragic and chilling that many churches and denominations have taken it upon themselves to "forgive" sins, administer sacraments which they (the churches) claim impart divine grace, and enunciate doctrine that they (the churches) claim is delivered to them by God. Shame on so many, many self-described Christians for this travesty.

» Migisi - Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins?

In response to Did Jesus Come to Forgive Sins? posted by Brother_Jones:
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God hasn't given me or any man the right to forgive sins.
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Don't scriptures instruct you to forgive sins?
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John 20:23 - If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.
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Mark 11:25 - And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
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Luke 17:3 - So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
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And about forgiving someone you know:
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Mat 6:14-15 - For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
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Mat 18:21 - Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
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If Jesus commanded you to forgive, you must've been given God's authority to do so, right? Jesus said even he, the Son, could do nothing by himself. (John 5:19)

-- posted by Migisi