Protestantism

» pink101 - Franklin

In response to Franklin posted by BrianTubbs:

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Prayer is a good and unifying thing.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - One more thing

I also think we need to be careful of putting people too much into camps. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin can generally be considered Deists who liked Jesus as a teacher, but they weren't always "humanist." Sometimes, far from it.

John Adams raised questions about Jesus' divinity and crucifixion / resurrection, which calls his orthodoxy into question. Yet he still considered himself a "Christian." And would probably be considered one today in the same vein as Martin Luther King, who also raised some questions on some points of orthodoxy. Yet NO WAY was John Adams a humanist.

I realize that Migisi didn't mention J. Adams, nor Jefferson. And I know that Phil's provided definition of humanist wasn't seeking to draw battle lines and divide people into camps per se. This post is not meant as a debate point, but more a statement of caution as we continue in this discussion. Intellectual caution, that is.

We're often too quick to label and compartmentalize people. All of us, myself included, do it. We just need to be careful in areas like this, where humanism really does mean different things to different people.

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» pink101 - One more thing

In response to One more thing posted by BrianTubbs:
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So, how do you see Migisi or the Pink as though they are compartmentalizing people?
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And, speaking of compartmentalization, did you happen to read Brother Jones' last post in the Think Tank thread? Here it is:
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http://protestantism.suite101.com/discus...
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:)
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In poker, we aren't accused of being a bully because we call someone else's claim that they have the better hand. We're just calling.
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-- posted by pink101

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» Brian Tubbs - One more thing

In response to One more thing posted by pink101:

Like I tried very clumsily to say, I didn't post what I said as a counter necessarily. I don't think you and Migisi are necessarily compartmentalizing. However, a caution flag goes up when I see people list adherents to "humanism" as Migisi did.

But she was not compartmentalizing. Neither were you.

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» redback - One more thing

In response to One more thing posted by BrianTubbs:

"We're often too quick to label..."

I could probanbly be labelled left-handed but my right hand insists on a daily basis it also has important taks to perform. Various body facilities are currently arguing with me on what I assumed they'd do on my command based on their labelled functions.

I believe I am greater than the sum total of labels others foist on me. Your reference to a non-orthodox Christian is interesting. Theses dots can be connected even if tenuously.

-- posted by redback

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» Migisi - Franklin

In response to Franklin posted by pink101:

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And ol' Ben was an astute politician.
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Read his letter, especially his P.S., in "Letter from Franklin to Ezra Stiles, 9 March 1790"
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysource...

-- posted by Migisi

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» Migisi - Franklin

In response to Franklin posted by BrianTubbs:
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His speech at the Constitutional Convention calling for prayer, for example, was NOT the kind of thing a humanist would say.
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Franklin's writings do convey his belief in one univeral supreme being. But what was his motivation to submit a proposal for morning prayer at the Convention?
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http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysource...
"I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service- "
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Being a political genius, Franklin knew that calling for prayer would unite conventioneers, at this Convention which was fraught with divisiveness. And giving each church leader the opportunity to lead the morning prayer session would appeal to that preacher's (and his congregation's) recognition and pride, thus including and uniting the various sects to support the Convention. If prayer began each day, decisions made during the Convention would also be seen God-approved by the faithful. As I see it, anyway.
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Maybe we can discuss what ideas might be commonly shared by people who are labeled 'secular humanists'? From what I've read, being a philosopy, it's really not a 'one belief' system and isn't limited by any specific doctrine.

-- posted by Migisi

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» Brian Tubbs - Franklin

In response to Franklin posted by Migisi:

I agree that Franklin was appealing to the religious common denominator as a means to unite the delegates. That should tell you something about the men who founded this nation, though. They were predominantly Christian. And even those who weren't orthodox, they respected Christianity. (The exceptions to this would be Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine, but they weren't at the Constitutional Convention).

However, Ben Franklin was not a flagrantly dishonest man. Yes, he was a politician. Yes, he understood and practiced spin in his time. Yes, he was a master diplomat. Yes, he understood finessing the truth. But at his core, he was a man of strong principles. I see a lot of reflection and sincerity in his speech to the Convention. He really does believe in what he's saying. Some of his other writings bear this out, at least writings from that time period of his life.

Bottom line...I don't think you can consider Ben Franklin a 'secular humanist.' An Enlightenment Deist, I'll give you that. But he would not be comfortable with completely setting God and religion aside as humanists do.

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» Migisi - Franklin

In response to Franklin posted by BrianTubbs:

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But he would not be comfortable with completely setting God and religion aside as humanists do.
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Curious. Is that what ~all~ secular humanists do?

-- posted by Migisi

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» pink101 - Most Highly Respected Scholars of Government

In response to Franklin posted by BrianTubbs:
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The great majority of the most highly respected scholars of government agree that religion is required as an strong institution of successful society.
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And, our society does honor the institution of religion giving it equal status to all other institutions of society. But, it is set aside and separated from the other institutions for a triple dose of protection--protection for religion and protection for government which ends up being protection for the people of society.
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So, it makes perfect sense that a man like Benjamin Franklin would call for prayer as a unifying factor in that august group of men.
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-- posted by pink101

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