Protestantism

» badactor - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by BrianTubbs:
First, it completely DESTROYS Dan Brown's argument (in The DaVinci Code) that Jesus' divinity was a doctrine developed and spread by CONSTANTINE and his Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.

Um, my copy of Brown's book pretty clearly states "fiction." Kind of makes me wonder what all the fuss is about. Now wouldn't there be an uproar if some sacred texts came with a similar marking, lol.... Fiction, or Non-

A good idea for a thread that just might find some common ground here might be an exploration of the bible as a work of literature. I'm pretty sure all would be in agreement that label would apply?

-- posted by badactor

» Brian Tubbs - Dan Brown

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by badactor:

If you've read the interviews with the author and the book itself, you know that Dan Brown - like many authors of historical fiction - tries to have it both ways. On the one hand, he tries to argue or at least insinuate that his novel, while fictional, contains much in the way of actual, credible information. On the other hand, when people accuse him of trying to mislead people or making outlandish claims - he retreats back into the "Well, it's just fiction" defense.

» Migisi - Pliny the Younger on Christians

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And your point is....?
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Simply that I found it interesting. Seems just being obstinant would get you in trouble with Roman authorities. Good thing you and I don't live in that place and time, ay?
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The only time Rome cared about what people believed was when those beliefs challenged the Roman power structures and/or the Roman "system."
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Why didn't Rome persecute the Jews - who, like the Christians, would not renounce their God, worship the Emperor as a god, or sacrifice to pagan gods?
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Just so I'm clear, are we critiquing Brown's work of fiction, or discussing Pliny's writings here?
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-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Slaves as Prison Guards

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Looking at other Pliny writings, I found this one, and Trajan's reply, indicating that 'public slaves', not soldiers, had customarily been used as prison guards. Might this be how Peter and Paul escaped their cells so easily?
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Quoting from:
http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2030.html
Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?-c.A.D. 113). Letters.
The Harvard Classics. 1909-14.
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XXX. To the Emperor Trajan
I BEG your determination, Sir, on a point I am exceedingly doubtful about: it is whether I should place the public slaves 1 as sentries round the prisons of the several cities in this province (as has been hitherto the practice) or employ a party of soldiers for that purpose? On the one hand, I am afraid the public slaves will not attend this duty with the fidelity they ought; and, on the other, that it will engage too large a body of the soldiery. In the meanwhile I have joined a few of the latter with the former. I am apprehensive, however, there may be some danger that this method will occasion a general neglect of duty, as it will afford them a mutual opportunity of throwing the blame upon each other.
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Note 1. Slaves who were purchased by the public. M."
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====================
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http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/2031.html
XXXI. Trajan to Pliny
THERE is no occasion, my dearest Secundus [Pliny's real name], to draw off any soldiers in order to guard the prisons, Let us rather persevere in the ancient customs observed in this province, of employing the public slaves for that purpose; and the fidelity with which they shall execute their duty will depend much upon your care and strict discipline. It is greatly to be feared, as you observe, if the soldiers should be mixed with the public slaves, they will mutually trust to each other, and by that means grow so much the more negligent. But my principal objection is that as few soldiers as possible should be withdrawn from their standard.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by Migisi:

Rome did, at times, persecute the Jews. In fact, Rome CRUSHED the Jews twice. Depended on who was emperor and what issues were at play.

» Brian Tubbs - Pliny not refuted

I want to bring this thread back to the forefront to show that the Pliny quote has NOT been successfully refuted. If anyone re-reads this exchange, they'll note that the following has gone uncontested.

Namely that Pliny's letter to the Roman emperor concerning Christians proves the following:

There WERE people - called Christians - who BELIEVED in Jesus' divinity as early as 112 AD.

This completely DESTROYS the argument advanced by some (including Dan Brown, but not limited to Dan Brown) that Jesus' divinity was a doctrine developed and spread by CONSTANTINE and his Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.

In fact, it spells serious trouble for those who think the Jesus-as-God belief is a LATER legend or myth created in the 2nd century. Why? Because AD 112 is at the BEGINNING of the 2nd century - the early part of the second decade of it, to be exact.

This puts the Jesus-as-God belief BEFORE AD 112. And that means that critics who allege the Jesus-as-God doctrine to be a conspiratorial concoction of the 2nd and 3rd century are simply WRONG.

Conclusion: Pliny's letter proves that Christians believed Jesus to be God at the outset of the 2nd century AD. And it IMPLIES (rather strongly) that this belief in Jesus' divinity comes from the first century.

This has not been refuted.

» pink101 - Pliny not refuted

In response to Pliny not refuted posted by BrianTubbs:

Quick definitions (divine)

# noun: a clergyman or other person in religious orders
# noun: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God
# verb: perceive intuitively or through some inexplicable perceptive powers
# verb: search by divining, as if with a rod (Example: "He claimed he could divine underground water")
# adjective: appropriate to or befitting a god (Example: "The divine strength of Achilles")
# adjective: devoted to or in the service or worship of a deity (Example: "Divine worship")
# adjective: of such surpassing excellence as to suggest divine inspiration (Example: "Her pies were simply divine")
# adjective: emanating from God (Example: "Divine judgment")
# adjective: being or having the nature of a god (Example: "The custom of killing the divine king upon any serious failure of his...powers-J.G.Frazier")
# adjective: resulting from divine providence
# name: A surname (rare: 1 in 100000 families; popularity rank in the U.S.: #10641)

-- posted by pink101

» _Boanerges_ - a doctrine developed

In response to Pliny not refuted posted by BrianTubbs:

This completely DESTROYS the argument advanced by some (including Dan Brown, but not limited to Dan Brown) that Jesus' divinity was a doctrine developed and spread by CONSTANTINE and his Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.

Any person making a true critical examination of Christianity will find that such claims as the above, have been easily refute and tossed aside as nothing more than mere babbling from intentional deceivers. What more could be said about the obvious. Even I myself was convinced on the authority of the Bible, not by some man or woman, but by the very scriptures that reveal the Gospel message. God's Word works as such.. It penetrates the mind in ways that is hard to understand. When we read the Bible, it not only reveals itself, but also, reveals ourselves. There is no other collection of books that has surpassed the Bible's superiority in all aspects of the human mind and soul... none...

-- posted by _Boanerges_

» pink101 - a doctrine developed

In response to a doctrine developed posted by _Boanerges_:

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Awesome
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-- posted by pink101

» _Boanerges_ - a doctrine developed

In response to a doctrine developed posted by pink101:

Indeed....

-- posted by _Boanerges_