Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In our discussion/debate thread regarding Suetonius, Migisi posted (from a website) a critique of several sources that Christians have used to bolster parts of the Christian faith. One of the critiques she posted pertained to Pliny the Younger - the subject of our current blog.

The part of Migisi's post (from the Suetonius thread) that pertains to Pliny reads as follows:

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, - born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.

A major problem with this....

IF someone uses the Pliny quote to somehow PROVE that Jesus is God, then I will agree with the critique. Pliny's appeal to Caesar for advice on how to deal with Christians doesn't constitute proof of Jesus' divinity.

HOWEVER...that is NOT how intelligent Christians use the Pliny quote. Pliny proves the following...

1) That there WERE people - called Christians - who BELIEVED in Jesus' divinity as early as 112 AD.

and...

2) That they were enough of a problem for Pliny that he was not only executing them (in some cases) and coercing them to recant (in others) -- but that he had to write to his emperor for advice.

What's the significance of this?

First, it completely DESTROYS Dan Brown's argument (in The DaVinci Code) that Jesus' divinity was a doctrine developed and spread by CONSTANTINE and his Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.

What's more, it spells serious trouble for those who think the whole Jesus-as-God Christian movement is a LATER legend or myth created in the 2nd century. Why? Because AD 112 is at the BEGINNING of the 2nd century - the early part of the second decade of it, to be exact.

This puts the Jesus-as-God belief BEFORE AD 112. And that means that critics who allege the Jesus-as-God doctrine to be a conspiratorial concoction of the 2nd and 3rd century have a LOT of explaining to do.

» Migisi - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by BrianTubbs:
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It might be helpful (and fascinating, IMO) to include Pliny the Younger's letter and Trajan's reply. I'm quoting:
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Medieval Sourcebook:
Pliny on the Christians
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pl...
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"Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus/Bithynia from 111-113 AD. We have a whole set of exchanges of his letters with the emperor Trajan on a variety of administrative political matters. These two letters are the most famous, in which P. encounters Christianity for the first time."
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PLINY, LETTERS 10.96-97
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
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"It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.
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"Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
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"Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
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"They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
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"I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.
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Trajan to Pliny
"You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age."

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by Migisi:

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I thought this from Pliny's letter was interesting: "For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished." [My bold]
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Interesting. Punished solely for bucking Roman authority, and not necessarily for their 'creed'.
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-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Pliny the Younger on Christians

In response to Pliny the Younger on Christians posted by Migisi:

And your point is....?

OF COURSE...the Romans werent' just punishing Christians for their beliefs, their creed. The Roman Empire was full of people that believed in a lot of different things. The only time Rome cared about what people believed was when those beliefs challenged the Roman power structures and/or the Roman "system."