Protestantism

» redback - What Surprises Me

In response to What Surprises Me posted by Migisi:

"Perhaps someone long ago discarded or mislaid documents which contained more miracle details which might've filled the holes in the story?"

This seems a calm analysis of the question by a nuclear physicist that suggest Biblical and scientific theories are complementary of the fact of such a worldwide flood:
http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tung...

I have not heard of James Marusek but you guys are probably ahead of me here, too.

Ponder: The Earth had pre-Flood conditions so God simply exploited nature...had developed natural wonders for this very pre-ordained purpose OR didn't know man was going to stuff up yet again...a recurring unanswered (for me) question?

What puzzles me more? Where the water went? After 370 Biblical days, whatever that is in Greenwich mean time, where did the bodies and excreta go etc? Nope...altho I've exercised irreverent poetic licence.

While I'm paddling around in the Great Flood, I'm still wet behind the ears on the real meaning of this story. Even great fairy tales by whatever name, can have purpose and a moral, can't they?

-- posted by redback

» Brother_Jones - Remembering Post 129

In response to Remembering Post 129 posted by Migisi:

I fully expect Fundamentalists would label me belligerent and obnoxious. It's a typical tactic to discourage scrutiny and discredit other POVs.

Well, suppose a rather nice Evangelical like me did so. Would you then admit that maybe someone like you who goes looking for religious sites to debate and argue is prone to somewhat belligerent and obnoxious behavior? It could be so. lol. Both things could be true that some would discourage you from simply looking for ways to disprove the bible.

I admit my descriptions of the Flood aftermath might be too graphic and repulsive to some

It is your description and it is not found in the bible.

This legend, detailing the annihilation of Man by an angry God, is a story revered as sacred by those who profess to love their neighbor? And it's told to children?

The Great Flood appears to be more than legend and there is evidence in other ancient records for it.

I have reviewed every post in this thread this very night. I invite you to respond to any of them and refute what I've presented.

In the whole thousand posts? Wow! Do you ever go back and read Acts? Maybe you will see why Pinky asks you if you missed your calling to be a Preacher? Obviously, you have a desire to teach the Bible. Or in your case to refute the Bible, verse by verse, and chapter by chapter. I think you and I both see that anyone who would start a new site dedicated to doing that would probably fail, due to the lack of interest. In order to refute the bible, you need pressure from believers to help you prove your points. My little bitty point that I was attempting to make is that when instructors don't get that pressure, there is a tendency to be somewhat belligerent and obnoxious. It happens to every Preacher. lol.

Maybe we could work with each other and you do the odd chapter numbers and I do the even chapter numbers. Who knows? This could lead to a writing career for you.

the oldtimer

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Some Questions About Your Posts

In response to Remembering Post 129 posted by Brother_Jones:
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I have some questions about your posts:
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Would you then admit that maybe someone like you who goes looking for religious sites to debate and argue is prone to somewhat belligerent and obnoxious behavior?
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It is your description and it is not found in the bible.
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Maybe we could work with each other and you do the odd chapter numbers and I do the even chapter numbers.
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Do you see yourself representing positions held by any particular group of people? Or do you think the ideas and interpretations you provide those of us who follow along are original?
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In other words, is what you present available for review by any groups of people that might scrutinize it for verification purposes? If so, what is the nature of those people who make up such groups? How do you come up with your ideas and interpretations?
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Will you be kind enough to fill me in?
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Maybe I represent some group of people who have serious questions.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Some Questions About Your Posts

In response to Some Questions About Your Posts posted by pink101:

Maybe I represent some group of people who have serious questions.

I guess we all represent some folk. As you know, I am self-employed in the real estate business. And I have been in ministry for a number of years.

I have attempted in the thread to represent you and Migisi.

And Jeff a little. If you go back and read especially the early chapters of the commentary, I did bring in your type of folks like Emerson, Thoreau, and Mark Twain. I can't seem to find any quotes at all by Walt Whitman on the story of Noah. Whitman is useless when it comes to the Old Testment. Twain is rather silent on the subject of most everything except Adam and Eve. Emerson is a go to guy for your kinda stuff, but he is like watching a race horse come down the track all alone with no resistance.

So therein lies part of the problem. I'm falling down a little on my job of representing you here in this story. Part of the problem is the lack of great minds who attempt to tackle this section of Genesis. Maybe when we get to the Psalms and Proverbs, you will feel a bit more represented. I hope so.

I basically am trying my best, even though I do not hold to these positions, to be representing those folk who believe:

(1) The bible is not a reliable source of information about God.
(2) Jesus is not a reliable source of information about God.

But it is a lotta work. And on some days I have to do other stuff.

the oldtimer

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Think About Baseball

In response to Some Questions About Your Posts posted by Brother_Jones:
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Think about Baseball, Brother Jones. I know you like the game as much as any of us. It's my favorite.
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O.K. Think about your career in the real estate business. You are a Realtor, right? Accordingly, you are held to represent the laws of the State of Texas regarding your membership in the Realtors' Association of (Austin or Texas). Before you were finally accepted as a member of the association, you had to pass certain examinations the purpose of which were to verify that you would faithfully uphold the laws under which you were licensed. That was a formally agreed upon procedure.
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Back to Baseball. If you play the game you do so by taking on some role. But, you also have to know all the other roles in the game. You represent the team in how you play the game. And, depending on which role you happen to be playing and on where the ball is at any one time, you are judged not only by your team mates; but, by many others including yourself as well as the onlookers in the bleachers or in front of their t-v screens if you might be in the majors. But, the important judge is you as far as carrying out the responsibilities of your role. And, in retrospect, you talk to yourself about how well or how poorly you did and you practice how to do better next time. In other words, you carry on an inner dialog with your own self.
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The same is true in your real estate pursuits. You learn from your mistakes as well as from your successes. We all do the same thing.
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It is exactly the same way about your position as an Evangelical. You have a role to carry out. And, there are rules of operation that you follow. Brian seems to think it's called "group-think" and he sort of scoffs at the idea while, at the same time, he writes an article on how preachers are ordained according to rules set by the various sub-groups involved. You are carrying out your position within the Evangelical group(s) to which you belong--even and very definitely here--you are being judged not only by yourself; but, by others as well..
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The Evangelical group(s) with which you identify represent a generalized view of what it means to be an acceptable member of that group just as it is true in Baseball. You are a player and you represent your team. Some times your team is up to bat and some times it's the other guys and you're playing your position on the field; pitcher, catcher, shortstop, etc. You name it. But, when that ball comes over the plate and you're at bat, you better be able to do what you're supposed to be doing. (Migisi is pretty good when she's at the plate, don't you agree?)
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When you take a position, you are under the control of the team you represent. Of course, you represent yourself; but, the team manager is the one that decides if you're doing the job according to its standards.
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You do not represent me here. You often try to portray me; but, you do not represent me.
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With all due respect.
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Does that help at all?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Think About Jesus

In response to Think About Baseball posted by pink101:

You do not represent me here. You often try to portray me; but, you do not represent me.

Okay, but I am attempting to understand why folks like you have gravitated to the position of believing Jesus is not a reliable source of information about God. I know you are going to probably squeal like a stuck pig when you read this, but all the same, I think I am being fair and balanced most of the time when it comes to you. And to Migisi.

the oldtimer

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» Migisi - Remembering Post 129

In response to Remembering Post 129 posted by Brother_Jones:
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someone like you who goes looking for religious sites to debate and argue is prone to somewhat belligerent and obnoxious behavior?
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You're funny. Where have you found me posting on other 'religious sites', Jones? In all the years I've been posting on Suite, note that I've never been deleted by management. Note that self-proclaimed born-agains ~have~ been - multiple times - for their belligerent and obnoxious behavior.
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The Great Flood appears to be more than legend and there is evidence in other ancient records for it.
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I've not said otherwise. And there appears to be some geological evidence for a catastrophic flood. Some theories support regional flooding, others hypothesize a global event. However, ancient stories of angry gods, favorite families, the world's animals saved by a boat - these are merely creative legends, not historical 'records'. Ancient people created thousands of legends to explain the unexplanable. And many of them were borrowed from other cultures and modified. The Hebrew Flood legend is a borrowed/modified legend, its suggested source from a 3d millennium BCE legend known as Eridu Genesis. The Epic of Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh also precede the Hebrew Flood legend. Compare them.
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In the whole thousand posts? Wow! Do you ever go back and read Acts?
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I've reread this thread, and scanned the Acts thread several times. However, I do scroll past off-topic posts. Many of those are ~yours~, Jones.
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Or in your case to refute the Bible, verse by verse, and chapter by chapter.
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When things don't make sense to me, I simply highlight the difficulties I've found, and request answers from those who ~claim~ to know their sacred text inside-and-out. So few really do.
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In order to refute the bible, you need pressure from believers to help you prove your points.
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The blog 'non-engagement' strategy (ignore, and they'll go away) didn't work on me in the Acts thread, nor will it work in this one. That's what irks you the most, isn't it. You can't control me. And don't flatter yourself... I don't need you to help me prove my points. You need to work on proving yours.
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there is a tendency to be somewhat belligerent and obnoxious. It happens to every Preacher.
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From my observations, you are correct.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - What Surprises Me

In response to What Surprises Me posted by redback:
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An excellent article, Red. Very helpful information. Thanks for the link.
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Even great fairy tales by whatever name, can have purpose and a moral, can't they?
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If you've got an idea on the purpose/moral of this story, I'd like to hear it, from your perspective.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brother_Jones - Remembering Post 129

In response to Remembering Post 129 posted by Migisi:

Where have you found me posting on other 'religious sites', Jones?

Technically, I guess you are right, since I spend my days checking up on you. The gist of the idea is that any thread that deals with Christianity here at the Suite is going to get your attention.

Note that self-proclaimed born-agains ~have~ been - multiple times - for their belligerent and obnoxious behavior.

I'm not sure about this reference or whether you could substantiate your idea. Maybe you are referring to Wendell or Oliver? It just seems like typical labeling from you.

However, ancient stories of angry gods, favorite families, the world's animals saved by a boat - these are merely creative legends, not historical 'records'.

You probably should label that your opinion about any and every story in the bible that contains a supernatural element. As to the Flood:

The story could be true.

The Hebrews could have borrowed it from other cultures.

The other cultures could have borrowed it from the Hebrews.

The accounts of a great flood could all be coming from a common original event.

It could be pure legend, and everybody made up the story.

Those appear to be the choices. We do have some choices.

When things don't make sense to me, I simply highlight the difficulties I've found, and request answers from those who ~claim~ to know their sacred text inside-and-out. So few really do.

Right. I do sometimes get into the mode that I think you are perfect too. Never any taunting, sarcasm, or obnoxious behavior.

That's what irks you the most, isn't it. You can't control me.

No, what irks me the most is that most of the time you refuse to be helpful and work with others. I asked you back a few posts if you would consider co-teaching by chapter. But you ignored me. I suppose you stay angry most of the time.

the oldtimer
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-- posted by Brother_Jones

» Migisi - Clean/Unclean Animals

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Briefly, some reasons I found for making the distinction:
1. Sanitation and health issues - disease, parasites, etc.
2. Totemism: clans/tribes used animals for totems - to eat a totem animal was an insult to that clan.
3. 'You become what you eat': superstition that the animal's anthropormorphized character/spirit would affect the eater's behavior and soul.
4. Sacrifice: directly linked to #1 because portions of the offering would be eaten by priests after the sacrifice.
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Briefly, examples of what was clean/unclean:
Land animals - MUST have cloven (split) hooves AND must chew cud.
Clean: Deer, antelope, cattle, hippos, sheep, goats, giraffe
Unclean: Horses (no cloven), camels (no cloven), pigs (no cud), hares (chews cud, but no hooves)
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Water animals - MUST have fins AND scales.
Clean: most fish
Unclean: Water snakes (no fins), catfish, sharks, whales (no scales), shellfish - lobster, crabs, oysters, clams (no fins/scales).
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Birds - NO predatory or scavenger species
Clean: domestic fowl, waterfowl, song birds, quail, pheasant
Unclean: birds of prey, herons, storks, crows, ravens, and BATS (included in scripture with birds??)
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Insects - MUST fly AND have jointed legs for leaping
Clean: locust, grasshopper, cricket
Unclean: ants, grubs, spiders, bees, roaches etc.
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NO Creeping/crawlies - crawls on its belly, and/or four-footed (having paws or 'hands')
Unclean: all rodents, squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits, possum, mink, beaver, canines, felines, reptiles (turtles, lizards, frogs, etc.)

-- posted by Migisi