Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - answering PT

My comments on your thoughtful post (and I really do appreciate your putting your position out there)...

I can only tell you why I wouldn't attend such a function: because I don't want to be associated with the extremist patriots.

Why let the "extremist patriots" (not that I would agree with your classification here, but for the sake of argument, I will for now) define patriotism? Why not show up and make sure YOUR voice is also at the table?

Those are the patriots who used to say, "America, love it or leave it."

This statement has merit DEPENDING on how it's applied. If it's applied/interpreted as "Agree with the government or get out," then I'm with YOU. But....

I don't have a lot of patience for people who constantly complain about and berate America - and I know people who do this.

The illustration I always give is this...

If I worked with someone at XYZ company and my co-worker was constantly complaining about, berating, criticizing, and tearing down the company, I would eventually say to that person: "If you don't like the company, there's the door! Go get a job someplace else." And I think I'd be right to do so.

Those are the patiots who accused me of being a traitor for opposing the Vietnam war.

There WERE some opponents of the Vietnam War who COULD be classified as traitors. Jane Fonda comes to mind.

But, certainly, I agree that MOST of those opposed to the Vietnam War were loyal, law-abiding Americans who were exercising their right to disagree with their government.

They take it too far, and are too strident in the face of disagreement.

This can be said for A LOT of people, PT. In fact, I can think of quite a few people on your side of the political fence that this very accurately describes. There are conservatives like this. There are liberals like this. There are Democrats like this. There are Republicans like this. I don't think it's appropriate to narrow it down the way you are doing so.

I don't own a flag. I don't own any flag buttons or pins or stickers.

Speaking of extremes...

I believe America is a great country, and I AM proud of my country, but I am not always proud of what my country does.

I agree 100% with this statement, though we would no doubt disagree on some of the specific examples.

When I lived in Germany for two years I learned a lot about my country--both how I really felt about my country, and how the rest of the world views America.

To steal a phrase from Pink, we're getting into "deep waters" here. Europe - especially France, Germany, Italy, etc. - is more transnational and cultural in its thinking than the United States. This isn't anything new. It goes back before World War I even. They don't see nation-state distinctions in the same way that we do.

The United States is very nation-state oriented, because we (as a nation-state) were founded on a set of specific ideals and principles -- things that ideologically and philosophically set us APART from many (if not most) of the other nations in the world.

Many Americans (including yours truly) are NOT willing to surrender those traditional principles and ideals - those founding precepts (see the Declaration of Independence) - in order to achieve greater multilateralism or globalism.

Now, there are some complicated dimensions to this, because a lot of conservative Republicans are CONTRIBUTING to the breaking down of nation-state barriers (and the surrendering of our sovereignty) because of DOLLAR SIGNS! So, it's a really complicated picture.

But this is what separates me from a lot of my "Money Republican" friends.

These are deep waters, and I'm only skimming the surface here. My point is that there are REASONS for American exceptionalism and American unilateralism - things that Europe is often offended at. There are REASONS for those things being in the American spirit, and TRADITIONALLY - those reasons were good ones.

...But pride in my country was one of the reasopns I hid my being American. I wanted to show them not all Americans were rude, greedy, whiney, loud--nor cow boys, or gangsters.

Well, another problem we have against us (and this is where liberals are MUCH TOO QUICK to dismiss Dinesh D'Souza - even though he exaggerates and goes too far in some of his arguments) is our COMMERCIALIZED CULTURE! How the rest of the world often perceives us is based on our corporate greed and our Hollywood celebrity culture. I really think left-leaning or flat out liberal folks COULD benefit from listening to people like Dinesh D'Souza and (on SOME issues at least) Pat Buchanan (though I hate to say it).