Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Support the Troops

In response to Support the Troops posted by pink101:

It seems like you are saying that people who don't agree with your ideology are opposed to our military and our country?

Whether people are opposed to our military and our country is for them to decide. What I'm saying is that it's "disturbing" that most of the people who came to the patriot rally in Clinton County were people who could be described as Christians, conservatives, Bush supporters, or families with loved ones overseas. That was generally the makeup of the crowd. And why? Where were the Democrats, the liberals, those opposed to Bush's policies, etc.? A "patriot rally" SHOULD have included them as well. And they were welcome. IT was a community-wide invitation. They CHOSE not to come.

» pink101 - Support the Troops

In response to Support the Troops posted by BrianTubbs:
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I did a promotion for the C.A.P. in Falls Church many years ago. It was a pleasant town.
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I'm sure there are extremists living there just as there are in every other community of any size.
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You should probably watch how you throw the general classification of groups of people, against whom you take some stand, in with any extremists. Turn about gets to be fair play and you don't seem to like it very much when people throw you in with any extremists.
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Could you cite a few specifics of why you're proud to be an American?
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - attending the rally

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In response to Support the Troops posted by BrianTubbs:
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Brian wrote:
most of the people who came to the patriot rally in Clinton County were people who could be described as Christians, conservatives, Bush supporters, or families with loved ones overseas. That was generally the makeup of the crowd. And why?
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I can only tell you why I wouldn't attend such a function: because I don't want to be associated with the extremist patriots. Those are the patriots who used to say, "America, love it or leave it." Those are the patiots who accused me of being a traitor for opposing the Vietnam war. They take it too far, and are too strident in the face of disagreement. I don't own a flag. I don't own any flag buttons or pins or stickers.
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I believe America is a great country, and I AM proud of my country, but I am not always proud of what my country does.
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When I lived in Germany for two years I learned a lot about my country--both how I really felt about my country, and how the rest of the world views America.
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During the time I lived in Germany, when I was first introduced to someone who was not an American, very often I did not tell him/her I was an American. I let them get to know me first, then confessed. If I hadn't done this, I believe I might have missed out on having some wonderful friendships--because many of these people, when I told them I was Ameircan, revealed their preconceptions about Americans.
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But pride in my country was one of the reasopns I hid my being American. I wanted to show them not all Americans were rude, greedy, whiney, loud--nor cow boys, or gangsters.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Brian Tubbs - answering PT

In response to attending the rally posted by paper_turtle:

My comments on your thoughtful post (and I really do appreciate your putting your position out there)...

I can only tell you why I wouldn't attend such a function: because I don't want to be associated with the extremist patriots.

Why let the "extremist patriots" (not that I would agree with your classification here, but for the sake of argument, I will for now) define patriotism? Why not show up and make sure YOUR voice is also at the table?

Those are the patriots who used to say, "America, love it or leave it."

This statement has merit DEPENDING on how it's applied. If it's applied/interpreted as "Agree with the government or get out," then I'm with YOU. But....

I don't have a lot of patience for people who constantly complain about and berate America - and I know people who do this.

The illustration I always give is this...

If I worked with someone at XYZ company and my co-worker was constantly complaining about, berating, criticizing, and tearing down the company, I would eventually say to that person: "If you don't like the company, there's the door! Go get a job someplace else." And I think I'd be right to do so.

Those are the patiots who accused me of being a traitor for opposing the Vietnam war.

There WERE some opponents of the Vietnam War who COULD be classified as traitors. Jane Fonda comes to mind.

But, certainly, I agree that MOST of those opposed to the Vietnam War were loyal, law-abiding Americans who were exercising their right to disagree with their government.

They take it too far, and are too strident in the face of disagreement.

This can be said for A LOT of people, PT. In fact, I can think of quite a few people on your side of the political fence that this very accurately describes. There are conservatives like this. There are liberals like this. There are Democrats like this. There are Republicans like this. I don't think it's appropriate to narrow it down the way you are doing so.

I don't own a flag. I don't own any flag buttons or pins or stickers.

Speaking of extremes...

I believe America is a great country, and I AM proud of my country, but I am not always proud of what my country does.

I agree 100% with this statement, though we would no doubt disagree on some of the specific examples.

When I lived in Germany for two years I learned a lot about my country--both how I really felt about my country, and how the rest of the world views America.

To steal a phrase from Pink, we're getting into "deep waters" here. Europe - especially France, Germany, Italy, etc. - is more transnational and cultural in its thinking than the United States. This isn't anything new. It goes back before World War I even. They don't see nation-state distinctions in the same way that we do.

The United States is very nation-state oriented, because we (as a nation-state) were founded on a set of specific ideals and principles -- things that ideologically and philosophically set us APART from many (if not most) of the other nations in the world.

Many Americans (including yours truly) are NOT willing to surrender those traditional principles and ideals - those founding precepts (see the Declaration of Independence) - in order to achieve greater multilateralism or globalism.

Now, there are some complicated dimensions to this, because a lot of conservative Republicans are CONTRIBUTING to the breaking down of nation-state barriers (and the surrendering of our sovereignty) because of DOLLAR SIGNS! So, it's a really complicated picture.

But this is what separates me from a lot of my "Money Republican" friends.

These are deep waters, and I'm only skimming the surface here. My point is that there are REASONS for American exceptionalism and American unilateralism - things that Europe is often offended at. There are REASONS for those things being in the American spirit, and TRADITIONALLY - those reasons were good ones.

...But pride in my country was one of the reasopns I hid my being American. I wanted to show them not all Americans were rude, greedy, whiney, loud--nor cow boys, or gangsters.

Well, another problem we have against us (and this is where liberals are MUCH TOO QUICK to dismiss Dinesh D'Souza - even though he exaggerates and goes too far in some of his arguments) is our COMMERCIALIZED CULTURE! How the rest of the world often perceives us is based on our corporate greed and our Hollywood celebrity culture. I really think left-leaning or flat out liberal folks COULD benefit from listening to people like Dinesh D'Souza and (on SOME issues at least) Pat Buchanan (though I hate to say it).

» Brian Tubbs - General Classification

In response to Support the Troops posted by pink101:

There are many nice people in Falls Church, but the city has gone further and further left. That's just the truth.

I see the wisdom in your warnings about classifying people too generally - or categorizing them unfairly. I think everyone here has been guilty of that to some degree, including myself. We should all show caution in that area.

» paper_turtle - answering PT

In response to answering PT posted by BrianTubbs:

I wrote:
Those are the patriots who used to say, "America, love it or leave it."
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Brian responded:
This statement has merit DEPENDING on how it's applied. If it's applied/interpreted as "Agree with the government or get out," then I'm with YOU. But....
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Well, who determines how much complaining is "too much?" From the liberal's point of view "love it or leave it" means one thing: don't complain at all; criticism is treason.
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I wrote:
When I lived in Germany for two years I learned a lot about my country--both how I really felt about my country, and how the rest of the world views America.
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Brian responded:
To steal a phrase from Pink, we're getting into "deep waters" here. Europe - especially France, Germany, Italy, etc. - is more transnational and cultural in its thinking than the United States. This isn't anything new. It goes back before World War I even. They don't see nation-state distinctions in the same way that we do. . . .
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What you said has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. If a person is living outside of his or her own country (or even state, for that matter), a different perspective emerges simply by virtue of being among people who do not see one's place of origin in the same way. People I met while living in Florida--who had never visited Vermont--had some pretty interesting misconceptions about my state.
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The criticisms of America I read and heard while living in Germany were based on the individual's concepts of right and wrong. While political climate and tradition can influence what one perceives as right or wrong, on the whole people around the globe hold certain moral values in common. Much of what America did in the Vietnam war was not moral.
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On the other hand, when Europeans praised America I could be sure they were not doing so because they had some emotional investment in defending their own piece of ground or way of life. They were on the outside looking in and they could see, sometimes more clearly than I could, what worked, and why.
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I wrote:
...But pride in my country was one of the reasopns I hid my being American. I wanted to show them not all Americans were rude, greedy, whiney, loud--nor cow boys, or gangsters.
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Brian responded:
Well, another problem we have against us (and this is where liberals are MUCH TOO QUICK to dismiss Dinesh D'Souza - even though he exaggerates and goes too far in some of his arguments) is our COMMERCIALIZED CULTURE! . . . corporate greed and our Hollywood celebrity culture . . . .
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I don't have a clue who D'Souza is. But many people, on both sides of the political spectrum, are talking and writing about what is wrong with consumerism.
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Yes, the image we project through the media is very often not a good one. People around the world read our magazines and see our TV shows. They eat at McDonald's and drink Coke and wear our jeans and listen to our music. But I think its very important to remember that each and every one of us is an ambassador of our country, whether or not we ever visit a foreign country.
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We need to be courteous and considerate to the stranger as well as the friend. We need to be honest in our dealings with everyone. We need to be aware that how we conduct ourselves in our private lives can have repercussions way beyond our own borders. We need to be responsible about how we express ourselves in the Internet, where we have a world-wide audience.
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As I see it, the bottom line is always the individual, and individual responsibility.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Support the Troops

In response to Support the Troops posted by BrianTubbs:
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What I'm saying is that it's "disturbing" that most of the people who came to the patriot rally in Clinton County were people who could be described as Christians, conservatives, Bush supporters, or families with loved ones overseas. That was generally the makeup of the crowd.
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How do you know this? Did you know everybody who attended - their religion and political party? Did you take a survey of the crowd? Given Bush's recent popularity rating (even lower than Carter's!), it's clear that even Republicans and conservatives are not Bush-supporters these days. Maybe you just didn't notice the Dems or liberals there - who also had/have loved ones in the military - because they were respectful and quiet? A rally to support the troops wouldn't be the appropriate time or place for a protest march.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Answer to Migisi

In response to Support the Troops posted by Migisi:

It was attended by about 150 people, so it was small enough that I could observe the crowd. Based on what they were saying, applauding, wearing, etc. - I think I described the group pretty accurately.

» Migisi - Answer to Migisi

In response to Answer to Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:
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It was attended by about 150 people.
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Hmm. Not a big turn out. I had that many here at my annual pig roast last year. Did the rally organizers serve food and beverages? If not, they might think about doing that next time. Free food and drink might draw the Dems and liberals. Tee hee. (wink)

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - American Exceptionalism

In response to answering PT posted by paper_turtle:

What you said has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

I disagree. What I was getting at strikes at the HEART of how America has traditionally understood Right and Wrong in foreign policy - and that HAS very much affected how Europe and the rest of the world views us.

The United States was founded at a specific point in time (July 4, 1776) on a specific set of ideals and principles (Declaration of Independence followed later by the US Constitution).

Accordingly, American foreign policy has been based HISTORICALLY and TRADITIONALLY on two principles....

1) Preservation of our "sacred form of government" -- of the United States of America

--This reflects our deep commitment to national sovereignty AND American leadership (so that we not unequally entangle ourselves in foreign alliances and treaties that will undermine OUR security and interests). American unilateralism.

2) Commitment to spread democratic and (yes) free market principles to the rest of the world

--We have historically believed that our way of life was the best and that we should export that to the rest of the world. Sometimes, we've tragically overreached here, and sometimes, we've lost sight of our own ideals here. But, by and large, our motives and heart have been good - despite what Howard Zinn would have us believe.

These impulses, PT, have fueled America's foreign policy, including our absolute, unequivocal commitment to standing AGAINST communist expansionism in the 20th century. We fought the Cold War because of the above two principles - and we were (except for the Carter years) unswervingly committed to winning the Cold War!

We were therefore committed to STOPPING - yes, STOPPING - nations from sliding into communism. First, we believed it was WRONG for a nation to give itself over to communism -- based on our belief that democracy and a free and open market were the right forms of government PERIOD. And SECOND, it was NOT in our best interests for more nations to align themselves with the Soviet Empire. So, we were willing to do what had to be done to stop countries from falling into communism - again, except for the Carter years.

Although, thankfully, when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, even weak-kneed, incompetent Jimmy Carter saw the light. His own words: "The scales have fallen from my eyes." And THEN he became belatedly committed to winning the Cold War! But it was too late for many nations he had given over to the communists and (in the case of Iran) to Islamic fundamentalism. Carter weakened the United States!

The point in all this is....my philosophy is based on traditional American principles and values. The United States should strive to spread democracy and free markets to the rest of the world AND should do what it needs to do to protect and safeguard its just interests. On the latter point, if we need to drop an atomic bomb for example to end World War II (and save countless American lives from an impending invasion of Japan), so be it!!

THIS is the kind of American exceptionalism and unilateralism that turns off much of Europe - since IT doesn't see things in a nation-state context like we do. And since Europe is drifting more and more to the Left. But I am NOT willing to let other nations dictate AMERICAN foreign policy. We must continue to do what needs to be done in pursuit of those two historic principles outlined above.