Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Opening statement

In response to Cathected posted by pink101:

Phil,
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In your opening statement you said you wanted to discuss drug addiction, but you only talk about welfare scams in relation to drug addiction. Therefore you set the tone, and the direction of the reader's thoughts.
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Now, you have clarified your position, but I'm still not clear about what your question is.
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Crack addicts know full well that crack is a bad thing in the overall picture. Do they know enough to stay away from crack? Yes. Do they stay away from it? No. So, why do they continue to go back and abuse it?
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I would ask you to go back and read my first response. I disagree with the premises you state here. People may be aware that OTHER people get addicted, but no addict takes any addictive substance with the full understanding that they will get addicted. And in a drug addiction the person's brain chemistry is altered. They want the high the drugs give them, and they value that more than any risk of addiction. After they take the drug for a while they may permenently alter their brains so that they can't experience happiness or satisfaction while sober/clean. Saying they "know better" ignores some very important factors.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle
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PS--come to think of it, I'm not sure I really understand your intent. Do you want to discuss drug addiction, or do you want to discuss the political ramifications of drug addiction?
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PT

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Opening statement

In response to Opening statement posted by paper_turtle:

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Here is an important part of my opening statement"
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"... dealers and suppliers are the scum of the Earth that deserve the harshest penalties possible."
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Did you miss that?
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My next question was about resentment building in which I wondered if you had anything at all to say about it.
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I have not made any negative statements whatsoever about addicts.
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But, I also asked another question asking if you would narrow in on it. That question is to learn if you can say anything about why addicts abuse that which they know is not good.
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If you want to talk about something else, explain it and maybe I can address YOUR interests.
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:~)
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Opening statement

In response to Opening statement posted by pink101:

Did you miss that?
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No, but that doesn't take away from what I said about setting the tone. Going by Migisi's response, my hunch is she might have drawn a conclusion similar to mine.
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That question is to learn if you can say anything about why addicts abuse that which they know is not good.
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I believe I have already made several statements addressing the reasons addicts take drugs, and I have questioned your assumption that they know better, and stated my reasons for questioning it. Did you miss *those* statements? (wink)
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - What Part--If Any--

In response to Opening statement posted by paper_turtle:
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I believe I have already made several statements addressing the reasons addicts take drugs, and I have questioned your assumption that they know better, and stated my reasons for questioning it. Did you miss *those* statements? (wink)
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I may have. I'm far from perfect.
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Addicts who have experienced intervention KNOW the score. Addicts who have reached the age of adolescence have been exposed to enough of the media to know about substance abuse. They--pretty much--know that the substance involved is not ggod for them under the conditions of their use. Maybe there are a few who do not know.
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IN FACT, many addicts have already been in treatment programs and have come to a place where they realize the gravity of the situation. Some have even been in prison and gone through deep treatment programs. It could be THESE addicts to which I am referring when I ask, what is it that gives them the false sense of reason that they have a right to return to the substance they abuse. I think you probably have some knowledge that I lack and I think you might be able to inform me. I've been doing a little study on the subject.
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What part--if any-- do you think resentments play in the cycle of drug addiction?
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - What Part--If Any--

In response to What Part--If Any-- posted by pink101:

Addicts who have experienced intervention KNOW the score. Addicts who have reached the age of adolescence have been exposed to enough of the media to know about substance abuse. They--pretty much--know that the substance involved is not ggod for them under the conditions of their use.
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You are speaking from the position of one who has not been addicted. You don't know what goes on in the mind of an addict, or what their reasoning is. You do not know if they believe they have the power to do better even if they want to. You do not know what kinds of pressure they are under, once they return to their homes, to resume their former way of life.
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I think there is also a huge difference in motivation between one who takes drugs for the first time and one who chooses to return to addiction after going through recovery.
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What part--if any-- do you think resentments play in the cycle of drug addiction?
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I do not think people begin taking drugs, or keep taking them, because they feel resentment. I think that the resentment of those who must deal with the addict and his addictive behaviors (including how he supports his habit) can negatively affect the addicts ability to stay in recovery--because it reinforces his negative self-image.
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I think the resentment of society as a whole may, in some ways, be attractive to young people considering taking drugs for the first time. They think this resentment implies a certain outlaw mystique. Being slightly outside the bounds of normal society appeals to them.
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But I think the resentment of society towards drug addicts (and alcoholics, and people with addictions to gambling, sex, or food) has an extremely negative effect for those struggling with recovery.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - You Might Find Interesting

In response to What Part--If Any-- posted by paper_turtle:
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I have been discussing this subject with a few people who have heavy experience in the area of addiction counseling.
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Here is a link you might find interesting:
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http://www.potterefron.sphosting.com/OnL...
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Apparently, Ronald T. Potter-Efron, M.S.W., Ph.D. & Patricia S. Potter-Efron, M. S., are considered to be somewhat expert in the field of addiction. They are convinced that resentments and anger play a big part in addictive personalities.
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have you heard of them--are you familiar with their work?
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From a personal contact with a different person, earlier today, I was informed that resentments, very often, carry a heavy influence on addicts.
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I wonder why you seem so adverse to giving the idea any credibility at all. Am I misreading you?
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BTW, I was addicted to cigarettes at one time. It was not easy to break the thirty year addiction; but, I did it. I have not been addicted to alcohol or chemicals. However, I used to find pleasure in and enjoyed going into classy cocktail lounges before they went out of style.
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:~)
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And, I know some alcoholics and some addicts and some that suffer from both problems. I don't resent them nor do any of the other people I know who also know them and their problems resent them. As far back as I can remember, I never knew anyone who knew who did on a personal basis.
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Resent drugs and alcohol abuse? Yup. A lot of people resent that including the addicts themselves.
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Did I ever tell you about the guy who worked for me who was hooked on Heroin? I have had several addicts work for me over the years.
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I do, however, and did resent it when these employees when I discovered they had lied to me and that they were using me. That doesn't mean I resented them.
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There is a television series that deals with addiction intervention. Have you seen it?
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - You Might Find Interesting

In response to You Might Find Interesting posted by pink101:

It just has not been my experience in the addicts I have known, or my finding in the addicts whom I have worked with as clients.
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As I said in a previous message I have more frequently observed resentment in those who act out--vandalism, physical abuse.
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Addicts may express anger, but this is a cover for emotional pain and deep despair. They find anger easier to deal with than their pain. But their pain is what drives them to take drugs and keeps them addicted.
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Using anger as a cover for pain is an extremely common response in our society--even among people who never take drugs. This is because our society equates emotional pain with weakness, but anger is seen as a display of strength.
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The anger is overt, but pain is the feeling within.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - You Might Find Interesting

In response to You Might Find Interesting posted by paper_turtle:

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I have updated my post since you responded to it.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - You Might Find Interesting

In response to You Might Find Interesting posted by paper_turtle:

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Addicts may express anger, but this is a cover for emotional pain and deep despair. They find anger easier to deal with than their pain. But their pain is what drives them to take drugs and keeps them addicted.
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Okay, thanks for responding to my question. I'm sure they have pain.
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What one professional told me went something like this. The addict may have some low self esteem that gives rise to a desire to have everything go according to their idea of how things should be. When anything goes wrong, that can give rise to anger, ie., resentment, which can cause the recovering addict to say give up hope and to revert back to their addiction.
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Is that your experience, Sister Turtle.
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-- posted by pink101

» redback - You Might Find Interesting

In response to You Might Find Interesting posted by paper_turtle:

At a recent seminar I went to, we were reminded of the 'cycle of crime' that involves: homelessness/poverty; drug & alcohol use; mental health issues; crime. Walk in anywhere within that cycle for cause and effect, probable outcomes. It doesn't appear to be rocket science nor is there likely to be 6 degrees of separation for any of us.

There are mixed messages as not all drug use leads to crime or unemployment...some say it's OK as long as you don't inhale. Some even ensure countries such as Afghanistan resume large scale drug production. Some countries execute offenders. And then there's the term "recreational" drugs" to soften the imagery.

The evidence suggests that if a person has not started using before they're 30 years old, they won't develop a problem. And if they can choose their parents or adoptive parents, better still.

Re mixed message above:

"...the American taxpayer should not be subsidizing the educations of those students who are convicted of dealing or using illegal drugs.."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006...

Not to forget Australia, hillbilly heroin, (the alleged drug of choice for currently pretty little Lindsay Lohan)) has hit the streets. In it's original form, it's legally available on prescription and subsidised.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/st...

-- posted by redback