Protestantism

» pink101 - Health Care

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We all live with our own problems, Brian.
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One of the convenient things about the 'Net is this way we are separated from personal experiences.
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I don't need lectures regarding how I should behave. I'm perfectly able to behave in a civil way and I do. I will be 76 next month and I expect my experience in life has taught me something about life that it appears you have yet to learn.
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I've watched most of the Michael Moore segment in the link I have provided above and everything I have posted so far stands as it has been posted.
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:~) Getting huffy with me doesn't work.
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You wrote, "I agree that universal health care is the RIGHT thing to achieve,..."
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What do you think is so wonderful about capitalism that you're willing to have a love affair with its ways and means such as war and corporate greed?
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I believe it's a good system for many things; but, when capitalists put profit ahead of human life and health, to hell with capitalism!! I put humanity ahead of it all.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Health Care

In response to Health Care posted by pink101:

We all live with our own problems, Brian.

Indeed - and I've never said otherwise. NOTHING I wrote was intended to suggest that I have problems and no one else does. Don't twist what I wrote. My point is that I UNDERSTAND first hand the health care crisis in America - and I understand the impact health challenges have on families. And it remains a valid point.

One of the convenient things about the 'Net is this way we are separated from personal experiences.

Not sure what you mean by that.

I don't need lectures regarding how I should behave.

I will continue to lecture you if I feel insulted.

I'm perfectly able to behave in a civil way and I do. I will be 76 next month and I expect my experience in life has taught me something about life that it appears you have yet to learn.

This is very condescending on your part. It's interesting that you've implied and Migisi has outright charged me with being arrogant. And yet YOU frequently display arrogance in this manner.

Let's get a couple things straight..

1) Your age does not give you the right to condescend or be rude to people younger than you. Some of your posts and our exchanges lead me to think that, deep down, you believe your age should give you a pass to say whatever you want - but somehow I have to be restrained (because I'm younger). The Golden Rule is not a generational thing. It's across the board.

2) Your age does not give you a monopoly on truth. I accept that you have more life experience, but this doesn't mean that you're right on every point in which we disagree. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're right on a majority of the points.

I've watched most of the Michael Moore segment in the link I have provided above and everything I have posted so far stands as it has been posted.

I plan to watch the Michael Moore documentary in its entirety when it comes out. Moore is a BRILLIANT documentarian -- artistically speaking. But he's more a propaganda artist than an investigative journalist or balanced documentarian.

Getting huffy with me doesn't work.

It wasn't a tactic.

You wrote, "I agree that universal health care is the RIGHT thing to achieve,..."

What do you think is so wonderful about capitalism that you're willing to have a love affair with its ways and means such as war and corporate greed?

I don't accept the notion that war is a natural or automatic consequent of capitalism. I'll give you corporate greed, although I think you'll find greed is more a product of human nature itself - as opposed to the product of an economic system. It just so happens that capitalism encourages greed. Although the right kind of capitalism seeks to channel that.

I believe it's a good system for many things....

To date, no nation has come up with a better one. (Small-scale societies are not included in that statement. I am referring to mid-size to large-size nation-states).

...but, when capitalists put profit ahead of human life and health, to hell with capitalism!! I put humanity ahead of it all.

I want you to analyze this statement. If particular capitalists put profit ahead of human life and health, then THEY should be dealt with. But there's no need to throw out the entire system!

You jump from a specific problem to an extreme solution. Do you see that?

» pink101 - A Tramp On The Street

In response to Health Care posted by BrianTubbs:
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I wonder if you can see the inconsistencies in your most recent response.
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We are the ones who has to discover the error of our ways--it is not our place to put each other down; but, we need to be lifted up.
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As far as my age is concerned, it is true that it means little. But, what is important is the experience one gains from having lived a life in which mistakes are made. Those people that have made few mistakes have little experience with choices; but, that is another issue.
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This discussion is more about health care as a human right than it is about our foibles. And calumny is a waste of everyone's time and energy as well as being a digression that changes the subject.
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When a long time and deeply ingrained set of inhumane values is put to the test by the injured, those forces that have benefited from it rise up with complaints by the dozens. At present the wealthy scions of the health care industry are screaming to high heaven with their--otherwise--laughable denials of the benefits of a complete revolution of how health care is given. But, it WILL change and we WILL have universal health care--nothing in that critical area of our life is more evident. It's on the way.
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You, yourself, acknowledge the value. But, there are those who have such cold hearts that they claim those who have not worked hard enough to afford proper care deserve to die like a tramp on the street
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The dilemma reminds me of a song with which you might be familiar. Here are the verses:
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Tramp On The Street
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Only a tramp was Lazarus that day
He who lay down at the rich man's gate
He begged for the crumbs from the rich man to eat
But they left him to die like a tramp on the street
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He was some mother's darling, he was some mother's son
Once he was fair and once he was young
It was Mary who rocked him, her darling, to sleep
But they left him to die like a tramp on the street
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Jesus who died on Calvary's tree
Shed his life's blood for you and me
They pierced his side, his hands, and his feet
Then they left him to die like a tramp on the street
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If Jesus should come and knock at your door
For a place to lie down or bread from your store
Would you welcome him in or turn him away
For God would reward you on the great Judgment Day
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Health Care

In response to Health Care posted by BrianTubbs:
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I had posted, "One of the convenient things about the 'Net is this way we are separated from personal experiences."
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and, you responded with,
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Not sure what you mean by that.
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I meant that we really do not know each other personally--this is Cyber Space. A different type of relationship exists here that we haven't known before. It deserves our patience so that we can learn how to use it to our best edification.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Agreed

In response to Health Care posted by pink101:
I agree with you. And, despite my frustration at your choice of words (at times) - and I KNOW I've frustrated YOU at times too - I do respect you and have enjoyed getting to know you.

» Brian Tubbs - Different Types of Rights

In response to A Tramp On The Street posted by pink101:

I'm thinking out loud here, so if this sounds clumsy - that's why.

I am thinking of two different GROUPS or TYPES of "rights." One set could be described as the "Let me be" set of rights - i.e., the right to live, the right to liberty, and the right to pursue happiness. I see those rights as the basis of the American Republic.

The other set of "rights" could be described as "Entitlement" or "Give me that!" kind of rights. I frankly see health care in that set. Why?

Because, unlike the "Let me be" set of rights, when one claims the right of health care - they are obligating SOMEONE ELSE to provide it to them. Does that make sense?

With respect to freedom of speech, for instance, I'm only demanding that other people back off and let me speak my mind. Same with the freedom to worship. Same with the freedom of the press.

But with the "Right to Health Care," I'm saying -- "Hey, I'm entitled to have YOU take care of me."

Obviously, I mean "you" in the generic sense. But it would have to be someone - some "you" out there. Know what I mean?

At some point, my demand for universal health care begins to impact those rights in the first category - when it comes to other people. Do you see that?

» pink101 - Different Types of Rights

In response to Different Types of Rights posted by BrianTubbs:
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Two types of rights; Natural (human) and Civil (societal).
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According to the experts, right?
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Our Founding Documents claim all men are created equal and we know, literally, that is not true. Some are born into almost unimaginable privilege while others are born in complete destitution. This is a simple fact that every sensate person knows.
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Natural Rights are those human beings are born with and possess in the wild and outside and away from civilization. Human Beings in their natural state all have equal rights of nature--Natural Rights.
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"In order to secure our rights, governments are instituted, drawing their just power from the consent of the governed. We created government in order to do law. Law is the collective organization of the individual right to defend life, liberty, and property. Laws that do not protect rights are not laws at all but merely decrees by legislatures in order to do mischief or create order or public safety." (http://www.patbratton.com/Rights.html)
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Civil Rights. Civil Rights are those rights that are created as a result of human beings living in civilized society and come about due to the complications of organized social structure. In the wild, we don't have highways with automobiles so we don't have rules to regulate and rights involved with traffic--no red lights and no stop signs. But, because we do have highways and traffic problems, we have created rules that give rise to certain rights--Civil Rights. This may be a little stretch; but, it exemplifies the need for such rights as our outlined and connoted in our U.S.Constitution.
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If Health Care is a human right, it is because we decide it is a right that we deserve just because we have been created equal. Period! There needs to be no discussion beyond this point regarding how such a right becomes law.
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The question is, "Will we decide Universal Health Care is a right of law in the United States of America?". That IS the question.
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Once we decide it is so, then, we will make it a law. That is how democracy works regardless of what Capitalism has to say. Our rights are not dictated by any man made economic system.
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All the bull roar aside.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Different Types of Rights

In response to Different Types of Rights posted by BrianTubbs:
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But with the "Right to Health Care," I'm saying -- "Hey, I'm entitled to have YOU take care of me."
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My husband's health care is provided by the Veteran's Administration. My physically disabled sister's health care is provided by Medicaid. Without those government programs, I don't know if either would still be alive today. Neither could afford private insurance. Nor can I.
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Frankly, I'd much rather allocate the majority of my taxes for national health care than to buy more bullets and bombs to kill people with. But that's just me.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Genuine Questions

In response to Different Types of Rights posted by pink101:

Pink, my observations/comments/questions are really, truly at this point NOT intended to be argumentative. I'm genuinely asking....

Can the government decide that some people are obligated (even if it is against their will) to take care of others?

Right now, our service industries are VOLUNTARY. Doctors, nurses, law enforcement professionals, military personnel, etc. perform services to the public - be it in the area of defense, protection, or health care - because they CHOSE to be in that line of work.

If you nationalize health care and extend it AS A GUARANTEE to everyone, then you WILL be forced to dramatically (not slightly, not moderately, but dramatically) raise taxes, draft people (eventually) into the health care profession, nationalize other related industries, etc., etc., etc.

Are you questioning this?

You say that if health care is a natural right, then all discussion ends. Well, I think this discussion is PERTINENT to determining IF health care is a natural right.

» Brian Tubbs - Bullets and Bombs

In response to Different Types of Rights posted by Migisi:

Frankly, I'd much rather allocate the majority of my taxes for national health care than to buy more bullets and bombs to kill people with. But that's just me.

The United States will always have to dedicate a large portion of its money to building bombs and bullets - and tanks, missiles, ships, etc. whether we remain at war in Iraq and Afghanistan or not. Obviously, the costs will diminish once we pull out of Iraq, but they won't go away.

It's easy to say that we'd rather spend money on health care than war, but war or defense is a necessary function of civil government.