Protestantism

» pink101 - Pedantry

In response to So Confrontational posted by BrianTubbs:
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Some did, to be sure. But not all.
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Where have I claimed all were of a single mind?
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I'm reading the personal accounts of men like Martin and Collins. My eyes are being opened regarding the way things were during that war. I have never, ever, heard any historian make the claim that the Revolutionary War was also a very real civil war until I began reading Raphael. And, I plainly see that it was just that exactly.
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Instead of putting down men like Zinn and Raphael, you might do well to encourage people to read and study their American history so they can gain a better understanding regarding what is taking place in America today.
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Pedantry is not a good method for motivating others to learn.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Pedantry

In response to Pedantry posted by pink101:

Where have I claimed all were of a single mind?

Uh...we BOTH have implied that numerous times.

I'm reading the personal accounts of men like Martin and Collins.

Haven't read much of Collins. But I own and have read Joseph Plumb Martin's autobiography. GREAT read. Really enjoyed it.

My eyes are being opened regarding the way things were during that war.

Do you think that the common person's perspective is the only perspective worth studying? Shouldn't you also read some of the writings, speeches, diaries of George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson? Aren't they important too?

I have never, ever, heard any historian make the claim that the Revolutionary War was also a very real civil war until I began reading Raphael.

Well, then, with all due respect, you haven't read much about the Revolutionary War. Not trying to be "confrontational," but you set yourself up for that. Virtually all of the books I've read about the Revolutionary War acknowledge that it was as much a civil war as anything else. In fact, one of the first books I ever read on the subject was titled Brother Against Brother. Read it in junior high school. Been hooked on the Revolutionary War ever since!

And, I plainly see that it was just that exactly.

Yes, it was.

Instead of putting down men like Zinn and Raphael, you might do well to encourage people to read and study their American history so they can gain a better understanding regarding what is taking place in America today.

Errrr...I HAVE recommended Raphael's book and Zinn's book. In fact, I provided a list of recommended books and resources in one of these threads a while back, and mentioned Raphael's book rather on it - if you recall. When I was the editor of the American Revolution section (which Suite unfortunately discontinued), I used Raphael's book as a REGULAR and FREQUENT source for my articles!

When I criticize Zinn and Raphael, I do so as one who has READ THEIR STUFF and USED it. Okay?

Are these men above criticism, Pink? Can't I point out where they go wrong?

Pedantry is not a good method for motivating others to learn.

If you want to call me pedantic, fine. In my opinion (for whatever that's worth to you), a person should BALANCE their study of American history. You have made the Howard Zinn and Ray Raphael school of historical study your MAIN and PRIMARY approach to studying history. I believe that is wrong. You should balance that out. IF you're going to read Ray Raphael, fine. BALANCE IT OUT by also reading David McCullough's 1776. Okay?

» Brian Tubbs - Civil Rights - great example

Continuing the argument from my last post and bringing this back to the subject of "civil rights"...

If one were to study the civil rights period and wanted a list of recommended books, it would be a TRAVESTY if I didn't include a biography of Martin Luther King, Jr. - don't you think?

Obviously, Dr. King would NEED to feature PROMINENTLY in any study of the civil rights period. Why? Because he was a dynamic and monumental LEADER in that period. It's not for nothin' that we have made his birthday into a national holiday.

Does this mean that others in the civil rights movement were unimportant? Hardly. But we need to honor Dr. King for being the leader that he was.

I feel the same way about our nation's Founding Fathers. They were the leaders and they deserve history's attentions and honors accordingly.

» pink101 - Civil Rights - great example

In response to Civil Rights - great example posted by BrianTubbs:

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You're right. I haven't learned much about the Revolutionary War except for what was passed on to me in the public educational system that I attended. I have seen a few movies and read some romantic novels set in the times. I don't think many people know much at all about that war. No one here seems to even be much interested other than you and me.
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I lived through the Civil Rights Movement here in the U.S.A. My understandings started in 1949 when, on my way to report to Paris Island after enlisting in the Marine Corps, I spent a day and an evening in Richmond, VA. I was 18 that summer. That and my experiences with several Marines from the South I met while I was in the Corps gave me some perspective on the intensity of the racism that pervaded the South. Then, later, when the Civil Rights Movement got underway, I was involved with some of the politics.
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Martin Luther King, Jr., was an important person in the movement; but, the movement had many others--not the least of which--were those racists who tried to stop the movement. The people of the North--for the most part--were appalled at the reactions by police and politicians in the South, men like Lester Maddox. Many people from our local communities invaded the South and joined in on Freedom Marches. King cannot be left out of any serious discussions of the movement; but, the movement would have existed and continued without him. The time was right.
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BTW, Raphael is careful to include quotations from Washington and the others.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Civil Rights - great example

In response to Civil Rights - great example posted by pink101:

I applaud you for living through that period and being on the right side. There are a lot of people, including in Independent Baptist circles, who were on the wrong side - and live in regret today because of it.

As for Dr. King, I agree that the movement would've happened whether he led it or not. Just as the American Revolution would have happened without George Washington. But these men helped shape those events they way they DID happen. And they deserve credit for that.

In the case of the Revolution, I frankly don't think the Americans would've won without Washington at the helm. And I really mean that. We would've lost the war and probably (like Canada) would've been granted independence gradually over time. This doesn't take anything away from Joseph Plumb Martin. But you need leadership. An army needs a good general to be successful.

p.s. Of course, it needs privates too. I'm thinking of Oz's army. What did they have? 27 generals and 1 private.

» pink101 - Civil Rights - great example

In response to Civil Rights - great example posted by BrianTubbs:

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In the case of the Revolution, I frankly don't think the Americans would've won without Washington at the helm.
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Here's my take on that. Washington brought discipline to the battles and persistence; so, he was keenly involved in how the war unfolded. He deserves very great credit and we call him the Father of Our Country with good reason.
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But, America would have won the War For Independence no matter what; because, the war England was prosecuting was unwinable--it only could be lost by them. Similar to the war being fought in Iraq at present. It cannot be won without killing everyone off. Even several nuclear bombs that would end all the hostilities would not end the war. This war that has been activated in the Middle East is about cultures that have come into confrontation. And, it will continue as long as the parties will not come to terms. Bush made the major error of America's history. He will go down in history in infamy. You will see that unfold in your lifetime. He won't even be able to spend his declining years in the U.S.A.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - American Revolution

In response to Civil Rights - great example posted by pink101:

If the American people had remained committed to the cause of independence, then I agree. It was an unwinnable situation for Britain. They didn't have enough troops to occupy all of North America. But that's the key. If Washington's army would have been destroyed at Long Island (he barely got away) or if he would've failed at Trenton and/or Princeton, I think the will to fight would have been seriously imperiled. The British had their best chance of forcing the colonists to peace terms in the first few years of the war. By the time you get to 1780, it was too late. Although they did have a good shot then of picking off SOME of the colonies.

» pink101 - American Revolution

In response to American Revolution posted by BrianTubbs:
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I think you're correct in your assumptions.
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But, the war would have eventually been lost by one side or the other as neither side could win it.
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That's the same situation we're faced with in Iraq. The only way we could ever win would be that we would have to kill a good 70 to 80 percent of all the people in the world.
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A little hyperbole, perhaps, but, you get my point.
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I predicted this situation when Bush was talking about doing it and before he invaded Iraq. What a foolish error in judgement he made.
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unless...
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He did it on purpose to ferment a global conflict which still may take place?
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??????????????
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Some powerful groups might be interested in such a conflict that could result in a major decimation of the world population--perhaps as much as 90%?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Iraq War

In response to American Revolution posted by pink101:

I think President Bush failed to plan for post-war Iraq. He correctly assessed that Saddam Hussein remaining in power was bad for the United States, bad for the people of Iraq, and bad for the Middle East. He also correctly concluded that the US was capable of removing Saddam from power. And I think his calculations pretty much stopped there.

And we're seeing the postwar mess that we're in now as a result of the President's short-sightedness.

» pink101 - Iraq War

In response to Iraq War posted by BrianTubbs:
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Your apology for Little George is a waste of your time.
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We can move on to more intelligent levels.
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Bush must have done something really bad that his handlers are holding over him, don't you think?
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Otherwise, he would be a more reasonable person.
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-- posted by pink101