Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Spirit?

In response to Spirit? posted by pink101:

I have been "speaking" within the context of spiritual questions. I defined "spirit as it realtes to spirituality. We are mind, body, and spirit. I call the nature of relationship between two people mostly in terms of having a sense of connection which is spiritual--spirit recognizing spirit.
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The Spririt of '76 refers to the zeitgeist--not exactly the same thing. And not, to my way of thinking, a spiritual mattrer.
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I would really like you to explain this statement:
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I get a sense that Buddhism is just another priestly method of controlling the underclasses who buy into its basic assumption that I see as false. It has an air of schizophrenia about it. I think all priestly classes give themselves an uncalled for authority for what other people think and do.
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I'm baffled how you could have reached that conclusion about Buddhism. Certainly nothing I have quoted so far would (as I see it) substantiate such a conclusion.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Spirit?

In response to Spirit? posted by paper_turtle:
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:~)
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Okay. I'll try to do that for you.
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Explain myself where I make this statement, "I get a sense that Buddhism is just another priestly method of controlling the underclasses who buy into its basic assumption that I see as false. It has an air of schizophrenia about it. I think all priestly classes give themselves an uncalled for authority for what other people think and do."
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First of all, from what you've posted, it appears to me that Buddhism operates under the blanket assumption that life is all about suffering. And, I see that as its priests telling the people that suffering goes with the territory of being alive in life. So, the people are put in a place where they cannot question the authenticity of their life that is filled with suffering. That's a crock!
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What about the wealthy people of privilege who do not suffer?
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I see this as the priesthood being subservient to the wealthy classes and pandering to a system that abuses the masses.
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I see the basic tenets of Christianity coming against that. This is not to say that the Christian priesthood doesn't play the same game as the Buddhist priesthood but in a slightly different way.
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - The natureof suffering

In response to Spirit? posted by pink101:

Mr Green is the wealthiest man in town--but he is miserable. He is obsessed by the idea that someone will steal all his wealth.
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Mrs Green is no happier than Mr Green, whom she never sees. She has every THING in the world, but inside she is empty.
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You are defining suffering very narrowly. We all suffer because of fear, feelings of inadequacy, physical ailment or condition, hatred, envy, greed, the lust for power, and so-on.
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This suffering is caused by our illusions about the nature of our reality. We perceive a threat where there is none, or we fear something which will never happen. We believe we cannot, and so we render ourselves unable to do it. We hate someone--and all we do is poison our own minds and souls. We envy our neighbor and become unable to see all the wonderful things which are in our lives. We long for material things and then discover things do not make us happy. We want power and then learn the only thing we can really control is ourselves. We bring this kind os suffering on ourselves.
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And we all do this, in one way or another--because we make a "god" of some THING, we form an attachment. People can also be attached to anger, self-righteousness, pride, prejudice, their perception of reality, or whatever. These attachments cause suffering--anxiety, stress, physical problems, lack of sleep, damaged relationships. This kind of suffering is commojn to all.
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The suffering of those who are starving, naked, or whatever, is a matter of deep distress to any Buddhist.
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In addition, you are looking at things from a Western view-point--and making a lot of assumptions about what life was like in the time of Buddha.
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You are very mistaken about the role of priests. And you are very mistaken about control. Buddhists are focused on controlling themselves so that they consistently walk in awareness and respond with compassion. They aren't after power. They are not materialsitic. There may be wealthy Buddhists, but I've never met one. If there are, I feel confident in saying he or she gives away much more than any Western person does.
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Ask the man on the street if life means suffering. I'll bet most would say yes. As I said earlier, the epxerience of suffering is optional, but we all know pain and heartache and longing and loneliness.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - The natureof suffering

In response to The natureof suffering posted by paper_turtle:
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I see these things as opinions.
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I respect yours; but, I believe mine is more accurate.
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Never mind the difference.
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You have a point you want to make.
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To suffer is a relative idea. I wouldn't mind the suffering your Mr. Green experiences. And, I'll bet I could get over it in about two minutes.
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heh heh heh
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - The natureof suffering

In response to The natureof suffering posted by pink101:

I see these things as opinions.
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I respect yours; but, I believe mine is more accurate.
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Don't we ALL think our opinions are more accurate than someone else's? But isn't it interesting, and perhaps mind-expanding, to try to set aside one's onw opinions, just for a moment or two?
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To suffer is a relative idea. I wouldn't mind the suffering your Mr. Green experiences. And, I'll bet I could get over it in about two minutes.
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Maybe, maybe not. We all have illusions. We are all mistaken, in some way, about how we perceive things. Of course suffering is relative, but to the one suffering, relativity seems unimportant.

Personally, I wouldn't be Mr Green for anything in the world. I like my simple, unadored, less-is-more life.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Definition of Freedom Is

In response to The natureof suffering posted by paper_turtle:
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The definition of freedom is to move unimpeded in what one possesses as their own property.
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Mr. Greed (Mr. Green) is impeded in his freedom; but, he has a great deal. What? Is it guilt that causes him to think he is in danger of losing it? Or is it the way he came by what it is that he sees as his property?
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Without rights, we struggle with authority.
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Christianity proclaims liberty because one is able to exercise God's Righteousness in their life. God's Righteousness represents those Inalienable Rights with which we have been endowed by our Creator.
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Go figure.
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Among those Natural Rights is the one that gives us freedom from suffering.
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - More re suffering, Buddhist priests

Suffering:
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"The Noble Truth of Suffering, monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering.
-Buddha
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In post #37, immediately above, Phil wrote
Among those Natural Rights is the one that gives us freedom from suffering.
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Yes, but we do not know that we can be free from suffering. We have to be *taught*--both that this freedom is possible, and how to attain it. We do not automatically know. And, even after we know, we do not always choose to exercise this knowledge, and/or we fall under the sway of a new attachment.
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If we did, infants would not howl with an upset stomach or the agony of teething. Teens would not go therugh existential angst. Husbands and wives would not argue about whose turn it is to take out the garbage. No crosses would burn on lawns. No wars would be fought.
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Buddhist priests:
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The link below will take you to an article called: "Being a priest at Zen Center." It briefly describes the process of becoming a priest, and touches on what the duties of a priest are. You will see that although there are some silimarities with the Western concept of a priest, there are also some very significant differences--the most notable of these being the lack of rigidity in the role a priest performs.
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http://www.sfzc.org/Pages/Vision/priest....
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In the article you will encounter the following terms which might be unfamiliar:
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zazen-seated meditation
Soto Zen-a Japanese Zen sect which practices a different form of meditation
sangha-the Buddhist community as a whole, or the monastic community
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The following Wikipedia articles are also informative, but rather lengthy and somewhat complicated:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy (scroll down to Buddhism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - Scripture & Doctrine-2

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Below is another quote from:
"The Place of Scripture in Buddhism and Its Relation to Doing Good," by Venerable Madawela Punnaji, A Presentation at the National Conference of Christians and Jews in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania April 29, 1990
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http://www.abva.org/Scripture%20in%20Bud...
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============
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The Four Satisfactions
"Kalamans, the Extraordinary Hearer, who abides . . . with a heart free from enmity, with a heart free of hatred, with a heart free of defilements, with a pure heart, by him is obtained here and now four satisfactions."
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[ 1. ]"Thinking, 'If there is a life after death, and if there are pleasant and unpleasant consequences of deeds, I should after death be heaven-bound, he obtains the first satisfaction.
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[ 2. ]"Thinking, 'If, on the other hand, there is no life after death, and there are no pleasant and unpleasant consequences of deeds, in that case, I maintain myself happily here and now, free from enmity, free from hatred, and free from trouble,' he obtains the second satisfaction."
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[ 3. ]"Thinking, 'If evil is done by the free choice of the doer, I do not think evil towards anyone. If I do not do any evil, how can I suffer in consequence,' he obtains the third satisfaction."
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[ 4. ]"Thinking, 'If evil is not done by the free choice of the doer, then I am pure in two ways (by not being responsible for my actions and by not doing any evil),' he obtains the fourth satisfaction."
- Kalama Sutta-Ang. II -
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[end of quote]
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The Buddhist reader, then is not told what he must believe about the here-after. Instead, he is given four alternatives, and each one implies certain behavioral responses, and certain consequences:
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If there is a life after death, and if my deeds have consequences, I can be happy now if I know I have lived in a way which will bring good consequences in the hereafter.
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If there is no life after death and there are no consequences I can be happy now if I live in a way which brings good consequences in this life.
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If evil is the result of free choice, and I choose not to do evil, I can be happy, in this life, in this moment.
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If "the devil makes me do it," then I am absolved from responsibility if I do evil, and doubly happy if I choose not to anyway.
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Punnaji extracts several lessons from the passage from scripture given above:
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1. Do not take anything as true under any condition.
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2. Understand what is good, rather than what is true.
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3. Use your own judgment. Scripture is only an aid to thinking.
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4. Focus on the inner experiences and their *consequences* to oneself and others, rather than concepts of truth and falsehood.
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5. It is possible to be good without the belief in dogmas or dependence on supernatural powers.
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6. Good acts result from a good state of mind, which means that meditation is the way to the good life.
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7. One who practices meditation does not have to worry about the next world nor depend on external powers.
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[end of quote]
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Scripture & Doctrine-2

In response to Scripture & Doctrine-2 posted by paper_turtle:

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I could be wrong; but, it seems to me that Buddhism is all about separating oneself from the immediacy of every day life and, that, to me is schizophenic.
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It is one more attempt to organize humanity under the control of institutionalized religiosity.
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Maybe there are others more sympathetic?
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-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Scripture & Doctrine-2

In response to Scripture & Doctrine-2 posted by pink101:

I could be wrong; but, it seems to me that Buddhism is all about separating oneself from the immediacy of every day life and, that, to me is schizophenic.
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You couldn't be more wrong. The objective is not to separate oneself. The objective is to not allow things like rude drivers on the throughway, or the foolishness of some individuals to cause one to behave badly. The objective is to learn how to control and utilize ones emotions and thoughts for constructive purposes.
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And one of the reasons for following this objective is so that one can be more aware both of the needs of others and what can be done, both pragmatically and spiritually, to help them.
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As one of my son's friendn so crudely but eloquently put it, you don't have to eat vomit to know what it is. You don't have to wallow in the dirt of political corruption, or moral decay, to see what is wrong and be moved to change things.
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And change must *always* begin with oneself. If I am not following the path, I cannot help anyone else find ir or even begin to walk it.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle