Protestantism

» pink101 - And So Are We All~

In response to the heave ho posted by _Boanerges_:
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"...those who profess tolerance and peace, are really, and in reality, simply hypocrites... Their dribble is pathetic.."
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And so are we all. I believe that is what drove Jesus to the cross.
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So are you the guy who is happy you're not like the rest of us?
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:~)
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-- posted by pink101

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» pink101 - the heave ho

In response to the heave ho posted by _Boanerges_:
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You have directed your vitriol at Paper Turtle as though she is a stupid person.
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I don't always agree with her and I had a go around with her recently here.
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But, I respect her as a well informed person with a broad base of knowledge about many subjects.
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I think your attacks on her person say far more about you than what you obviously intend to say about her.
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You have some good reason to be ashamed of yourself. I think you owe her an apology. She is too polite to give you what you deserve from her.
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Maybe you could cool it?
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-- posted by pink101

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» _Boanerges_ - And So Are We All~

In response to And So Are We All~ posted by pink101:

And so are we all. I believe that is what drove Jesus to the cross.

Indeed true.. However, Im not the one making such hypocritical statements..

So are you the guy who is happy you're not like the rest of us?

no.. that guys lives in your mind..

-- posted by _Boanerges_

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» _Boanerges_ - vitriol and the "stupid person"

In response to the heave ho posted by pink101:
You have directed your vitriol at Paper Turtle as though she is a stupid person.
No.. I pointed out her hypocrisy... Should she try to defend her statements to Bro_Jones... then she would become "stupid" (as you call it.. (from her statements - not cooking apple pies, or doing simple math equations - as a few examples)....
re: "I believe that is what drove Jesus to the cross." hypocrisy
The appropriate thing to do, for a person caught in this situation, is to simply apologize and get on with it.. Otherwise, this kind of crap simply brings "the baggage" that she is bitching at in the first place, by claiming someone is not being "peaceful" or "reasonable" or whatever else SHE deems fit....
yawn....
the tolerant people are really those who are intolerant and move to silence free speech, etc.. etc.. and more etc's......
another. yawn yawn....
(sigh.........)
In fact, you are the very person who labels a person that does not "get in line" with you.. "vitriol" is an "us and them" mentality that creates division and strife...
yet.. you continue....

and yet. all I have done is pointed out the hypocrisy, without labeling, branding, or personal attacks.. The reason is quite simple.. I am not against PT or you for that matter. I just cannot stand to sit by and listen to such ignorance..

really.. its time to start acting "peaceful".. as Pt would claim!.. If it fits, wear it...

asortafairytale.....

-- posted by _Boanerges_

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» paper_turtle - Goodness (another look, Pt 1)

In response to Goodness posted by paper_turtle:

But the harvest [fruit] of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, fidelity, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law dealing with such things as these. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the lower nature with its passions and desires. If the Spirit is the source of our life, let the Spirit also direct our course. (Galatians 5:22-25)
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The fruit of the Spirit, then, refers to the ways that God's love is manifested in our lives. Our daily behavior very accurately reflects what we really believe and value. Therefore, the person who thoughts, words, and actions consistently demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit is guided by Spirit and inspired by God's love. We can trust what he says about God because his words are consistent with his actions.
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The results of the fruit of the Spirit is more fruit of the Spirit in others. The results are good. They do not harm anyone, in any way.
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Notice that Paul says "There is no law dealing with such things as these." In otherwords, outward rituals and observances will not lead to the sort of inner transformation required to yield a harvest of good fruit. This fruit is the result of what happens within the person, through faith, not through legalism, or even sheer logic.
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Paul concludes by encouraging his readers to be guided by God's goodness rather than the demands of their egoes.
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If then our common life in Christ yields anything to stir the heart, any loving consolation, any sharing of the Spirit, any warmth of affection or compassion, fill up my cup of happiness by thinking and feeling alike, with the same love for one another, the same turn of mind, and a common care for unity. There must be no room for rivalry and personal vanity among you, but you must humbly reckon others better than yourselves. Look to each other's interest and not merely to your own. Let your bearing towards one another arise out of your life in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 2:1-5)
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Christian goodness is manifested through the strength and harmony present within its community. Christians demonstrate goodness within their families and neighborhoods in a way which builds bonds of respect, peace, fairness, and compassion.
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As Christians we are called to be humble, to devote our minds and hearts to creating a place in which every person is free to learn and grow in mind, body, and Spirit. Christ presents himself to us in each person we encounter. And we manifest Christ to others when we respond with goodness.
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And once again, I would like to remind you of my requests:
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It would be nice, in discussing these ideas, if we could stick to *just* the ideas **as they are presented** (without reading things into them)--AND try to also practice goodness towards one another.
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This thread is not intended as a place for the debate of doctrinal points. It is not intended as a place to "defend the faith." I am hoping people will respond with *personal* thoughts--their *own* words, thoughts, feelings, not what they think they "ought" to say.
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Just so we're clear: "goodness" in the context of this thread means refraining from labeling, name-calling, finger-pointing, or impugning the character of another in any way.
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It seems to me what I have asked for is very simple. It seems to me honoring these simple requests should put no burden on anyone.
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I'm curious what would happen if we *all* strived to manifest the fruit of the spirit in our responses to one another here.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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» paper_turtle - Truth & Falsehood, Pt 1

In response to Goodness posted by paper_turtle:

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Another excerpt from:
"The Place of Scripture in Buddhism and Its Relation to Doing Good," Venerable Madawela Punnaji, A Presentation at the National Conference of Christians and Jews in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania April 29, 1990
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http://www.abva.org/Scripture%20in%20Bud...
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============
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According to Buddhism, truth and falsehood are concepts derived from logical thinking. What is logical is considered to be true, and what is illogical is considered to be false. Although the conclusions, "true" or "false," should follow the process of logical thinking, we tend to decide that our beliefs are true, before we use logic to prove that they are true. In other words, we become emotionally attached to beliefs first and then use logic to justify them. This use of logic to justify emotionally held beliefs is called rationalization of beliefs. Therefore we tend to emotionally believe first and then rationalize. This emotional attachment to beliefs is called, "personalization" of beliefs, in Buddhism. To "personalize" beliefs is to identify oneself with beliefs and think, "this is my belief," or "this belief is me."
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When we personalize beliefs this way, what results is conflict and disharmony. When we cling to a view-point and say, "this is my view and this is the truth," we are in conflict with those who hold the opposite view. This leads to argumentation, dispute and quarrelling. The unhappy consequence of this is that we lose our "goodness." That is, by trying to claim any view as "true," we lose our "goodness." This is why the Buddha advises his followers not to accept anything as "true." Instead of seeking truth, his advise is to seek "goodness."
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[end of quote]
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============
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It seems to me what was said above is validated many times over in the discussion threads here, nearly every day.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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» paper_turtle - Truth & Falsehood, Pt 2

In response to Goodness posted by paper_turtle:

continuing from where the quote above ends:
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The "Parable" of the elephant
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Once upon a time there was a king who thought of an interesting way of amusing himself. He ordered the royal elephant to be brought before him and invited some blind men, blind from birth, to come and touch the elephant and describe it. One touched a leg and said, "The elephant is like a tree." One touched the tail and said, "The elephant is like a broom." One touched the abdomen and said, "The elephant is like a wall." One touched an ear and said, "The elephant is like a fan." Each descried the elephant in a different way and believed that he had direct experience of the truth. Then they started quarrelling with each other maintaining that each was in possession of the complete truth.
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This, the Buddha said, was the way people quarrel about beliefs and lose their "goodness" as a result. To be good one has to be able to respect the other person's point of view and to refrain from saying that the other person is wrong or that one's own point of view alone is right.
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[end of quote]
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When we argue over Christian theology, we are just like those blind men--thinking we have seen the entire "elephant" when we have only seen one part of it. We become so wrapped up in proving our own rightness that we lose sight of the flesh-and-blood person with whom we are conversing. We then feel justified in allowing our anger to rule us. We think its OK to insult one another, and add fuel to the fire.
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But wisdom cannot speak in such an atmosphere. If we want to hear wisdom we must be quiet. We must speak and think calmly. And we must remember that our actions may speak much more loudly than our words.
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Please note: in the last few postings I have deliberately used "we" rather than "you," or indefinite words such as "one," "a person," "he/she." This is intended to convey an acknowledgement that none of us is perfect, and I freely admit to having, on occasion, resorted to anger, sarcasm, or other not-so-constructive behaviors.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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» paper_turtle - Phil

In response to the heave ho posted by pink101:

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Thanks for what you said.
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She is too polite to give you what you deserve from her.
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I *am* polite. I was raised that way, and I've found good manners have been very helpful in all kinds of ways.
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Politeness, however, is not the reason I chose to remain silent. I'm simply practicing what I preach about non-violence.
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Its all good.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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» paper_turtle - Truth and falsehood, pt 3

In response to Goodness posted by paper_turtle:
continuing the quote given in parts 1 & 2:
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Beliefs are beliefs, not truths or falsehoods. No matter how strongly we may believe that a statement is true, it could still be proved false Often we take a statement to be true not because we know that it is true, but because we like it, or because our family believes it, or because it is found in a holy book, or because of any such reason other than logic. It is interesting to note that we need to believe a statement, only when we do not know that it is true. If we know that it is true, we do not need to believe it. We believe only the unknown; the known we do not have to believe. We also find that if we want to maintain a belief, we call it the truth; but, on the other hand, we find that if we want to maintain the truth, we have to call it a belief. A belief should be judged not in terms of its truthfulness, but in terms of its goodness. That is, in terms of how far it makes people good and happy. Therefore, in Buddhism, there are good views and bad views, not true views and false views.
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[end of quote]
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Migisi--
I hope you don't mind, but your words in the "Audacity of Evolution" thread just fit so well I wanted to quote them here:

What is 'faith'? It's defined as a body of dogma of a religion. It's belief that does NOT rest on logical proof or material evidence.
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The synonym for 'rational' is 'logical'. Belief in supernatural powers and gods isn't 'logical'.
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'Reason' is defined as an underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence. There's that pesky word 'logical' again. And the word 'fact' - which biblical Creationism can not provide or prove.
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The only idea that fits 'reason' and 'rational thought' is this: NOBODY can know how the universe and life came to be, and ~every~ idea is merely a theory - an opinion, a speculation.
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Exactamente.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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» paper_turtle - Goodness in Buddhism

In response to Goodness posted by paper_turtle:

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Yet another quote from:
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"The Place of Scripture in Buddhism and Its Relation to Doing Good," Venerable Madawela Punnaji, A Presentation at the National Conference of Christians and Jews in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania April 29, 1990
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http://www.abva.org/Scripture%20in%20Bud...
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What is Good
In deciding what is good, the Buddha advises, we should think of the consequences. If the consequences of a belief are harmful to oneself or others, it is not good. If they are beneficial to oneself or others, it is good. This way, one decides for oneself what is good and bad, instead of depending on others. What is accepted on faith in another, is not understood by oneself, and therefore it tends to be believed, that is, accepted as a truth emotionally. If we accept a statement as a truth emotionally, we come in conflict with others. Therefore, acceptance on faith leads to conflict. What is understood by oneself is not emotionally held as truth, and therefore does not lead to conflict with others.
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This is why the Buddhist scripture is not meant to be believed or accepted as true on faith, but to be understood. In understanding, one forms one's own ideas. Therefore, the Buddhist scripture is only an aid to thinking; it helps one form one's own ideas about good and bad.
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[end of quote]
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We learn by doing. We understand a principle by seeking to apply it to a situation, observing the results, and evaluating our motivations and actions. Jesus taught the Golden Rule. When we try it out, we see that it works. When we are good to people, they are good to us (most of the time). ;)
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

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