Protestantism

» pink101 - June 6, 1968

In response to June 6, 1968 posted by pink101:
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You can be sure that, had Robert Kennedy not been assassinated (39 years ago this day) by the political enemies of what he stood for, we would be living in a different world today. It is one of the greatest WHAT IFS of our time.
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Ask your self the question, "What political force has benefited most from the assassination of the three Kennedys?"
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The answer gives a major clue regarding where any investigation should begin regarding those three deaths that have had such an enormous impact on your life--whoever you are. Think not? Think again..
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - June 6, 1968

In response to June 6, 1968 posted by pink101:

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My sister and I were here:
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http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/68-...
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=======================
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Brief History Of Chicago's 1968 Democratic Convention
http://www-cgi.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/...
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"Many anti-war activists also became involved in the presidential campaigns of war opponents such as Sen. ROBERT KENNEDY (D-NY), Sen. Eugene McCarthy (D-WI) and Sen. George McGovern (D-SD)...
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"Other events preceding the 1968 Democratic convention contributed to the tense national mood. On April 4, civil rights leader Martin Luther King was assassinated and riots broke out throughout the country. (This included Chicago, where Mayor Daley reportedly gave a "shoot to kill" instruction to police.) On June 3, artist and cultural icon Andy Warhol was shot. Finally, on June 5th, presidential candidate ROBERT KENNEDY (President John Kennedy's brother) was shot in the head after winning the California primary. He died the next day. There also were countless protests against the Vietnam war at this time. Student protesters effectively shut down Columbia University in April...
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"Outside the official convention proceedings, anti-war demonstrators clashed with 11,900 Chicago police, 7,500 Army troops, 7,500 Illinois National Guardsmen, and 1,000 Secret Service agents over 5 days.
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The worst day of protesting was Wednesday, and was dubbed the "Battle of Michigan Avenue." Protesters were stopped in their march to the convention site and the media recorded graphic violence on the part of the Chicago police. Many innocent bystanders, reporters and doctors offering medical help were severely beaten by the police. Many hotels where the delegates were staying were affected by the riots. Fumes from the tear gas used by the police and "stink bombs" thrown by the protesters drifted into the buildings. (One of those affected was the Conrad Hilton, the headquarters for the Democratic party and the press.)"
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At the convention, Dem Sen. Abraham A. Ribicoff, D-Conn. said in his speech (nominating George McGovern): "If George McGovern were president, we wouldn't have these Gestapo tactics in the streets of Chicago."
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Chicago Mayor Daley (defending his police after the riot): "Gentlemen, get the thing straight once and for all - the policeman isn't there to create disorder, the policeman is there to preserve disorder." Freudian slip?
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Many in the anti-war movement saw Bobby's murder as 'the last straw'. All our heroes had been murdered under very suspicious circumstances. It was time to defend their memories and fight back!!
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Where are our anti-war heroes of today? Cindy tried.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Labels

In response to Cause and Strategy posted by paper_turtle:

I understand the problem with labels. But is it a coincidence that the most hardline anti-war voices - the ones saying that the US is corrupt, unjust, etc. - are all sitting in the left hand political bleachers?

Some labels DO fit, PT. If I ask a person the following questions, I can pretty much tell where they are coming from?

*Do you believe in God as the Creator and Supreme Being of the universe?

*Do you believe in absolute truth and absolute Right and Wrong?

*What do you think of the Founding Fathers?

*Should our nation and society remain loyal to the basic, foundational principles of our heritage?

*Do you consider yourself a patriot? If so, why and how?

*Do you believe the United States is (overall) a force for good in the modern world?

Based on the above questions, I can tell whether a person is conservative or liberal - and usually to what degree they are on that scale.

I would submit to you that those whose answers reveal them to be Left or Far Left are also - almost universally - strongly opposed to George W. Bush and the war in Iraq.

» Brian Tubbs - Distinctions, Migisi

In response to Cause and Strategy posted by Migisi:

Answer to your question....NO.

I have tried to make clear that the "cynical, anti-war, leftist" stuff applies to the issue of CAUSE and NOT of strategy.

There were MANY, MANY people in the anti-Vietnam war movement who felt simply that the United States had botched Indochina and that we were sending more and more young men to their death for no reason - in light of how we had botched the war. These folks weren't anti-US, nor were they necessarily leftist.

BUT...there were others in the anti-Vietnam war movement who were more or less pulling for the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. THAT is a different matter altogether.

I see the same lines of distinction with our present conflict.

» paper_turtle - Labels

In response to Labels posted by BrianTubbs:

Sometimes, *certain* labels are of use, depending on the topic and the manner in which the labels are used. But it seems to me that using *certain* labels amounts to loaded language, with the implication being that people of sense, or people with strong morals, or people who are patriotic, would NOT be such-and-such. This is unfair, and may not necessarily be true.
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The questions you have presented may or may not have clear-cut answers. There's not a single question I could anwser in 25 words or less. But, as I see it, assigning the label "liberal" or "conservative" to someone might NOT enhance my ability to understand,and/or appreciate what they have to say. Further, one person might be very liberal with regard to one question and very conservative with regard to another. What does it ultimately prove?
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And does that label really help me understand the other person? I think it does just the opposite. Once the label is in place we Don't have to listen, because we already know what they will say.
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If I am reading something expressing an alternative point of view, I find labels do not improve my opinion about whether or not the writer is credible. In fact, the moment I spot loaded language I'm apt to completely tune out--because it seems to me the writer is incapable of being objective.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» Migisi - Distinctions, Migisi

In response to Distinctions, Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:
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These folks weren't anti-US, nor were they necessarily leftist.
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Hmm... "MANY MANY people" who opposed the Vietnam War weren't anti-US, or necessarily leftist? Well, guess what, Bri? MANY MANY people who oppose the Iraq War aren't anti-US or necessarily leftist either.
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-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Distinctions, Migisi

In response to Distinctions, Migisi posted by BrianTubbs:
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"....there were others in the anti-Vietnam war movement who were more or less pulling for the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. THAT is a different matter altogether.
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"I see the same lines of distinction with our present conflict."
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I, personally, came to be involved in politics and took an active role during the VietNam experience. My interest came out of what I was learning through study about the situation. I think you are correct here that there were those who were pulling for the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. Quite a few. I'm sure my stand was used against me on occasion.
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What was happening is related to something that is happening today. America was being divided by its political leaders. In the past they would have gotten away with such shenanigans; but, because we have access to alternative sources of information, we aren't led down the river of deceit so easily.
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Americans didn't want to take the North Vietnamese side of the issues. But, when we saw truth, we had to take a stand for justice.
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Viet Nam was built on lies. Iraq is built on lies. What can we do?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Labels

In response to Labels posted by BrianTubbs:

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The questions you pose merely show your own black and white religious and political biases. You don't allow for the in-betweeners - the moderates.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Distinctions, Migisi

In response to Distinctions, Migisi posted by Migisi:

Well, guess what, Bri? MANY MANY people who oppose the Iraq War aren't anti-US or necessarily leftist either.

Yes. Yes. I AGREE. That's what I've been saying! I feel like we're two ships passing here. That's what I'm saying.

» Brian Tubbs - Labels

In response to Labels posted by Migisi:

Ironic, but I would be inclined to say that YOU often don't allow for the moderates.

My questions are not all necessarily yes-or-no questions. So, within the answers (as PT said - some of those answers could be long), there WILL be varying degrees of philosophy.