Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - More lies

In response to More lies posted by Migisi:

So, an incorrect assessment from 2006 becomes a "lie" if it doesn't come to pass. Is that it?

» Brian Tubbs - What about these Iraqis?

What about these Iraqis?

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

Do they matter? Can we listen to them? Can we give them a voice in this?

» pink101 - Unfair

In response to Many who disagree posted by BrianTubbs:
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And since this thread is about Memorial Day, I will also add that most of our young men and women who have died in Iraq (including Casey Sheehan) didn't see America's presence in Iraq as evil.
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But, they did die and--in doing so--they are premature and unjust truncations of vitality that had every right to continue.
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Their death does not justify any cause; although the grieving look for justice. The finality of death leaves them with little choice other than to capitulate.
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How sad.
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We could well have done better by those who are led to the slaughter.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - More lies

In response to More lies posted by BrianTubbs:
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So, an incorrect assessment from 2006 becomes a "lie" if it doesn't come to pass. Is that it?
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Malicki was repeating what Gen. Casey had said in August '06 for political purposes. Casey estimated that Iraqi security forces would need another 12 to 18 months before they could take over for American troops. US elections were scheduled for November. To save the Republican party from defeat in the upcoming elections, this lie was concocted. Few believed it, and the election results proved that.
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If Malicki actually believed what he said, he must not have been paying any attention to what was going on in Iraq before he made his November 30, 2006 statement...
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The number of insurgent attacks had increased by 200 PERCENT between March '04 and Dec. '05. The violence worsened in 2006. During the first six months of '06, civilian deaths increased by 77% - a rate of 100 each day!
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July '06 (3 months after Malicki took office) - Bush sent more U.S. troops into Bagdad where violence and sectarian strife had increased significantly.
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August '06 - top CENTCOM commander Gen. John Abizaid told a Senate panel that sectarian violence in Iraq had grown so strong that civil war was inevitable.
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September '06 - a Pentagon report finds that since the new Iraqi government had been established in May, casualties to civilian and security forces had increased by 51 PERCENT.
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September '06 - the classified 'National Intelligence Estimate' - a consensus view of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies - was leaked to newspapers. It concluded that the Iraq war had made the overall terrorism problem worse.
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October '06 - Malicki was under pressure to stop the uncontrolled violence. His security forces had been infiltrated by Shiite militias, which tortured and killed hundreds of civilians. To appease the US, he fired two police generals.
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October '06 - Maj. Gen. Caldwell said that the 12-week campaign to secure Baghdad had failed to reduce violence by sectarian death squads and insurgents - despite the deployment of 15,600 US troops, 9,600 Iraqi Army soldiers, and 30,000 Iraqi policemen.
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November '06 (8 days before Malicki makes his statement) - the UN reports civilian deaths reached a record high: 3,700 Iraqi civilians dead in October, the highest toll since the war began. The report also said that about 100,000 Iraqis fled each month to Jordan and Syria.
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November '06 (one week before Malicki's statement) - 200+ people died when five car bombs and a mortar shell explode in Bagdhad's Sadr City. The next day, Shiites retaliated against Sunnis and attacked mosques in Baghdad and Baquba. Dozens died in the attacks.
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November 29, 2006 - (one DAY beore Malicki's statement) - the Iraq Study Group announced that their report would be released Dec. 6. James Baker, Lee Hamilton, and other bipartisan group members had been working on it since March 2006. They had sent an updated report to Congress in JUNE. The report concluded that "the situation in Iraq is grave and deteriorating" and "U.S. forces seem to be caught in a mission that has no foreseeable end."
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Given the significant increase in violence and death tolls, and the UN, Pentagon, Iraq Study Group, and military expert's assessments in 2006 - do you ~really~ think Malicki ~believed~ his own statement before he made it? No, he (Casey, and Bush) knew it was a lie.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - What about these Iraqis?

In response to What about these Iraqis? posted by BrianTubbs:
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http://www.theotheriraq.com/
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'The official investment site of Kurdistan'.
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"It's spectacular.
It's peaceful.
It's joyful.
Fewer than two hundred US troops are stationed here.
Arabs, Kurds and westerners all vacation together."
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I'm calling my travel agent and investment banker today! I wonder if they have time shares there.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - What about these Iraqis?

In response to What about these Iraqis? posted by Migisi:

So, those from a business perspective have NOTHING credible to say or offer. But, those from a liberal or socialist perspective do. Is that it? We can only listen to the anti-war, anti-US voices. If someone speaks up in favor of America, that person is automatically ruled out of bounds.

» Migisi - What about these Iraqis?

In response to What about these Iraqis? posted by BrianTubbs:
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So, those from a business perspective have NOTHING credible to say or offer.
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Come on, Brian. The 'economic environment' section reads like a late night info-mercial. A small sample:
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"INTERVIEW: MICHAEL DOUGLAS
If people were to ask me how we can help the Kurdish people I would have to say we should be giving them the same kind of help we give others. We should be doing business with them.
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"NARRATOR:
The Kurds of Iraq understand that the success of their fledgling democracy depends largely on the success of their economy. That's why they are throwing open their doors to international investors and introducing the world to their vast natural resources, including their extensive proven oil reserves waiting to be developed.
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"INTERVIEW: DOUGLAS LAYTON
A lot of the people that have opted to come here and visit Iraqi Kurdistan are absolutely surprised that this is nothing like the rest of Iraq - that there is a secure, stable environment.
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"So you're a European businessman thinking about investment. You've got investment funds. You're looking for a ground floor opportunity. I would urge you and encourage you to come and just have a look for yourself, because every single person that we've brought in - and we've brought in many delegations from all over the world - they come here and within twenty-four hours they begin to relax and they understand this nothing like what they've been watching on tv.
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"NARRATOR:
With peace comes prosperity. Every day more business investors from around the world are making the surprising discovery of a land where the opportunities are endless, the doors are open, and the time to act is now."
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If someone speaks up in favor of America,...
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Note the site advertises and emphasizes "Fewer than two hundred US troops are stationed here." I thought that was very telling.
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But what does this commercial investment site have to do with the Iraq war? What point were you trying to make?

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Point

In response to What about these Iraqis? posted by Migisi:

The point is that the US invasion of Iraq has helped MOST of Iraq in terms of peace and order. The news reports the continuing hot spots, but there are OTHER parts of Iraq that aren't like that. AND....there ARE Iraqis who are grateful for the US getting rid of Saddam. That's the point.

» pink101 - Point

In response to Point posted by BrianTubbs:
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So what's the trouble then?
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Shouldn't everyone just be as happy as a lark?
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Why have 15 Americans died over there already this month?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Point

In response to Point posted by BrianTubbs:
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The point is that the US invasion of Iraq has helped MOST of Iraq in terms of peace and order.
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Well, yeah.... most of Iraq is peaceful... because there's nobody living in most of Iraq!! In Nov. '06, the UN reported that 100,000 Iraqis fled to Jordan and Syria EVERY MONTH. And how many have died??
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Read the whole article, Bri:
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=============
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http://informationclearinghouse.info/art...
"10/11/06 "Washington Post" -- -- A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred...
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"Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day [PER DAY!] throughout the country."
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============
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The news reports the continuing hot spots, but there are OTHER parts of Iraq that aren't like that.
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How do we know? Are journalists allowed in those other parts?
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AND....there ARE Iraqis who are grateful for the US getting rid of Saddam. That's the point.
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But are they grateful NOW, given the turmoil, poverty, and losses they're enduring? Saddam was out of power in 2003. That's four YEARS without him. How better off are they NOW? Brian, over 70% of Iraqi civilians surveyed said they want us out of their country!

-- posted by Migisi