Protestantism

» pink101 - TCOB

In response to TCOB posted by paper_turtle:
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The study of group dynamics is quite interesting. And, you're right that church groups are no different than other groups when it comes to demographics. It all depends on the purpose of the group. Generally, churches are membership groups.
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:~)

-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - on physiognomy

In response to TCOB posted by paper_turtle:

As far as the "details" go, it seems to me that both Protestants and Catholics share the same tendency as the general public

Sort of like picking up the pieces of a Monopoly Game with only family members. Not much happens after everybody turns in for the night. No dynamic there.

We esteem the like of Corrie Ten Boom and Gandhi because something actually happened in their lives. They met the robber and God outside their quiet circles of playing bridge or whatever they did to pass the time, and they didn't spend the rest of their lives blaming parents, church, or government.

Let us be satisfied in the name of God.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» Migisi - Church hopping

In response to Church hopping posted by paper_turtle:

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If the church as a whole is not providing authentic community it affects the spiritual health of the individuals, no matter how strong and wise they might be.
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So, it IS the church's responsibility - and fault - if everyone's needs aren't fully met. If it fails to provide everything each member thinks it ought to, the church becomes the cause of their personal spiritual, mental, and social difficulties. What a cop out. Where's the personal responsibility?
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Given the long list of expectations:
experience of community
fellowship
encouragement
support
understanding
companionship
like-minded individuals
love
respect
affirm our worth
people who speak our language...
I can see how some would be disgruntled with EVERY church - because none can meet their standards of perfection.
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This is true of *any* group we might join.
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In years past, I've belonged to several groups and associations, and served on their Boards. I've dealt with members who expected the organization to be and do everything for them - without them lifting a finger or kicking in a dime to help implement their own suggestions for improvement. I can empathize with the church pastor and priest.

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-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Church hopping

In response to Church hopping posted by Migisi:

I was not denying the need for personal responsibility.
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But each individual, as a member of any group, is not only responsible to him/herself, but to the group as well. This is true within the family, the neighborhood, the state, or ANY group to which a person belongs.
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If the group is not healthy the responsibility rests with individual members of the group. If the group is not healthy ALL members of the group are affected, not just the ones causing the lack of health.
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If the individuals cannot change the group, they take responsibility for themselves by leaving the group.
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Its not about blame-fixing, or expecting miracles.
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Its about (IMHO) being realistic about what one can do. I can't save the world. I can only save my small corner of it. If I want to be able to affect positive change in my small corner of the world I have to be in the proper state of mind/body/spirit to act effectively.
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If the group/individual I'm working with won't listen, doesn't want to grow/change/learn, I can't force them--and its pointless to keep butting my head against a wall.
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If someone you knew was in an unhealthy marital relationship, would you tell them they were abdicating personal responsibility by leaving?
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Group Rules

In response to Church hopping posted by Migisi:
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Groups can be seen as (1) membership groups or (2) task oriented groups.
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In membership groups, the parameters are delineated by rules that define what it means to be a member and in task oriented groups the rules define those persons who work toward the accomplishment of the group's purposes. In one case the motivations are inner directed and in the other, outer directed. All groups have rules and it is the duty of some members to see to it that the rules are not broken--otherwise, the group loses its identity. Sometimes the rules get to be more important than the purpose for which the groups exists.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Church hopping

In response to Church hopping posted by paper_turtle:
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If someone you knew was in an unhealthy marital relationship, would you tell them they were abdicating personal responsibility by leaving?
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An interesting analogy. Reviewing the list of expectations, they appear to be similar to those we might expect of a spouse. When/if that spouse/church won't or can't meet them, we leave.
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I left. Not because the church failed to meet my needs, desires, or standards, but because I didn't believe anymore. And church-hopping from one denomination to another wouldn't change that.
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If the individuals cannot change the group, they take responsibility for themselves by leaving the group.
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Sour grapes? Our way or the highway? I'm okay with that. That's how new groups are formed - hopefully, bringing better ideas. But when the new leader can't or won't meet the expectations of the newly formed group, they will complain bitterly - just like before. NO org or church can be all things to all people. Dissatisfaction comes from within, not out.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Subterfuge

In response to Church hopping posted by Migisi:
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"...but because I didn't believe anymore."
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Point!
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When we see beyond the subterfuge, we see the clearing up ahead that is truth.
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Sub = under
ter = the
fuge = struggle
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A subterfuge is like an escape from reality.
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I think, in a real sense, Brother Jones sees glimpses of the clearing up ahead and it frightens him; so, he stays with the subterfuge rather than move into the future to accept truth like some of us have done.
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Make any sense to you?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Subterfuge

In response to Subterfuge posted by pink101:
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How many go from one church to the next - hoping to find ~the~ church that mirrors their beliefs perfectly? How many, who can't admit that they don't believe, search for a church that might ~make~ them believe? Like "...I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mk 9:24)
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Yes, you make sense to me. Some day, we just have to be honest with ourselves - and everyone else in our lives. I was surprised just how many were in the same boat with me, but couldn't admit it until I did.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Can of Worms

In response to Subterfuge posted by Migisi:
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So, hopping from one church to the next is a denial that there is a clearing up ahead that might represent unbelief?
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This drive to protect what we have been taught to believe at our father's knee and on our mother's lap ends up taking us into a church that takes the responsibilities of belief away from us? So, we can say with all good Catholics, "I let the Church take care of doctrine for me."?
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You opened quite a can of worms, Brother Jones
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:~).
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Can of Worms

In response to Can of Worms posted by pink101:

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So, hopping from one church to the next is a denial that there is a clearing up ahead that might represent unbelief?
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Might or mightn't. Guess it would depend on the person, how long they've been hopping, and what (if anything) they find along the way.
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This drive to protect what we have been taught to believe at our father's knee and on our mother's lap ends up taking us into a church that takes the responsibilities of belief away from us?
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I think so. As I see it, most parents assume they have a responsibility to raise their children in their faith. Parents and godparents swear to do that at their kid's baptism, yes? But many parents feel inadequate about teaching their faith, so they hand their kid over to the Church. The Church assumes the role of parent (a Catholic priest is called 'Father'). My parents handed me over to parochial school - to be educated and disciplined by the professional God experts - the nuns and priests. ~They~, not my parents, taught me what I should believe.
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So, we can say with all good Catholics, "I let the Church take care of doctrine for me."?
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Again, I think so. The pastors and priests are the religious professionals, after all. Most people don't know their denomination's doctrine, and don't care. They show up for weekly services, say 'amen' at the prescribed times, sing the memorized hymns, and go home. If they have a Bible, it's sitting on their library shelf collecting dust.

-- posted by Migisi