Protestantism

» Migisi - Falderow Set Aside (long)

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by EvilChihuahua:
.
I got the Flu at the moment.
.
Sorry to hear it. I hope you feel better soon. I've been fighting a head/chest cold for a month. I get better, and then one of my grandkids gives me a germy kiss.
.
The four corners of the Earth: North, South, East and West. We use the expression today even, but it doesn't mean we believe the Earth is flat.
.
Good point. Yes, a biblical expression we still use. When I think of four corners, I also think of Peter's weird animal dream in Acts. Remember the sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners with the animals on it?
.
-------------------------
.
Job 26:7 - "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing."
Are you ignoring that it states right there that the Earth floats freely? The verse doesn't tell us about what the Babylonians believe, but tells us exactly what is reality: the Earth floats freely in space.
.
Sorry. Got sidetracked with the north-stretching.
The author of Job is not the only ancient writer to mention the earth hanging upon nothing. One school of Greek philosophers thought that the earth was hung upon nothing. They conceived of the earth as a cylinder, suspended on nothing at the center of the sky, which was a hollow sphere surrounding the earth. So the Bible's reference to the earth hanging on nothing is not unique. There's only one reference (Job) to the earth allegedly floating freely, but look how many other verses there are which refer to the earth's "foundation" - a belief that the Earth had a foundation below it - supported by something (a concept commonly held by other cultures)...
.
Job 38:4-6 - "Where were you when I laid the EARTH'S FOUNDATION? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its FOOTINGS set, or who laid its cornerstone-"
.
1 Sam. 2:8 - "For the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world."
.
2 Samuel 22:16 (and Psalm 18:15) - "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils."
.
Psalm 82:5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH are shaken.
.
Psalm 102:25
In the beginning you laid the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
.
Psalm 104:5 - "He set the EARTH ON ITS FOUNDATIONS; it can never be moved."
.
Proverbs 3:19 - "By wisdom the LORD laid the EARTH'S FOUNDATIONS, by understanding he set the heavens in place;.."
.
Proverbs 8:29 - "...when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH."
.
Isaiah 48:13 - "My own hand laid the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together."
.
Isaiah 51:13 - "...that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH,..."
.
Isaiah 51:16 - "...I who set the heavens in place, who laid the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH,..."
.
Jeremiah 31:37 - "This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH BELOW below be searched out..."
.
Amos 9:6 - "...he who builds his lofty palace in the heavens and sets its FOUNDATION ON THE EARTH, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land- the LORD is his name."
.
Zechariah 12:1 -"...The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,..."
.
Hebrews 1:10 - "He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
.
--------------------
.
There were fossils of Behemoth found?
.
Yes, it goes under the clssification Titanosaur.
.
You do know that 'behemoth' is often used in a general way to mean something extremely large, right? Titanosaur was sure a behemoth, but it wasn't ~the~ Behemoth. The Bible description of Behemoth doesn't match the archaeological sauropod description. The teeth of sauropods (like Titanosaur) were spatulate and gracile, (peg-like) - neither facilitated chewing grass "like an ox". It needed molars to do that. Their jaws moved up and down, not in a circular motion like an ox. And they were extinct WAY before Man and the Bible.
.
Lots of other problems, but I'll end with NIV references to Behemoth being "under the lotus plants" (Egyptian lily) and "hidden among the reeds in the marsh" (21). Something as huge as a giant Titanosaur couldn't be hidden by reeds, or lie concealed under lilies (22). The KJV reads that he was 'in the covert (hiding place) of the reed, and fens." Again, a creature ~that~ large couldn't have been hidden in the reeds or in the shallow water of a fen. In my online bible footnotes, it reads: "Job 40:15 Possibly the hippopotamus or the elephant." Most resources I've read agree with that. No question Hippos are behemoths. Imagine the largest hippo documented at 4,500 kg (10,000 lb) and about 5 meters (16 ft) long. Most average 3.5 meters (11 ft) long, and weigh from 1,500 to 3,200 kilograms (3,300 to 7,000 lb). Their diet is wild grass. They inhabit areas of deep water with adjacent reed beds, and they're found in African rivers, including the Nile and the Mara. They would've been a common sight in the Nile region in Biblical times.
.
---------------------------
.
I'll get back to the rest of your post another times. It's late here. Have a good day.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - Poetic expressions

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by Migisi:

Migisi,

I personally don't go down the road of defending the Bible on scientific grounds, since much of it was written allegorically and poetically. Christians get themselves in trouble when they pick some verses that imply a scientifically correct ecosystem, and then ignore others that are poetic - like the "four corners." It's an unnecessary diversion to the real debate.

This thread began as a discussion of the reality of Jesus, and that's where I hang my hat in apologetics discussions - that and the existence of God.

» HeadZenCards - Value of Jesus

In response to Poetic expressions posted by BrianTubbs:

If pretty words cause you to be a better human being, I am all for them. However, the hatred, violence and sheer ugliness of the Bible far outweighs its poetic value.

Since the Bible is not to be defended "on scientific grounds", the reality of Jesus may be just a poetic expression as well, Brian.

If not, you and every Christian have to deal with the following:

Matt. 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Peter and Paul don't agree with Jesus (see Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21), so the reality of Jesus was just poetry to them, scientifically speaking of course.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's always a bad sign when your poetry rejects you from going to poetry heaven, but rejoice! THAT is the good news!

Otherwise, you would be forced to take seriously the idea that you should do the LORD GOD's will.

1 Sam. 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and UTTERLY DESTROY all that they have, and spare them not; but SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Are you prepared to do the LORD GOD's will, Brian? If not, there is no value in the reality of hanging your hat on Jesus.

Since you live in a world of human beings making poetry, let the unreality of Jesus become the light and the way.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Migisi - Poetic expressions

In response to Poetic expressions posted by BrianTubbs:

.
It's an unnecessary diversion to the real debate.
.
Are you asking that Kim and I discontinue our discussion?
We're enjoying an exchange on what he presented as 'evidence' in the Bible. It might be a slight diversion from the exact title of this thread, but it does go to the validity of what's written. If you want to hang your hat on allegory and prose, that's fine with me.

-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - Poetic expressions

In response to Poetic expressions posted by Migisi:

The reality of Kim and you is more real than Jesus so please do continue.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Migisi - Poetic expressions

In response to Poetic expressions posted by HeadZenCards:

.
Feel free to jump in.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Another reply to Kim's evidence

.
Jeremiah 33:22 - What 'evidence' are you presenting here? That the sand and heavenly bodies can't be counted? Okay, I'll go with that. But what does it prove?
.
It refers to the number of stars, which is beyond count. The common belief at the time was that there was only 1,100 stars.
.
Where did you find that information? And who believed it? The Jews believed in three heavens too. The first consisted of earth atmosphere where the clouds and birds were. The second was where the sun, stars, and moon were. The third heaven was God's dwelling place. Paul claimed he went to the third heaven.
.
Hebrews 11:3... Yes, the microscope hadn't been invented yet. But the idea that things were made up of smaller parts which couldn't be seen by the naked eye existed ~well~ before Paul.
.
What were these things and could they enable us to see atoms?
.
See Ancient Physicians at http://www.innvista.com/health/ancient.h...
You might also enjoy Ancient Greek Scientists at http://www.angelfire.com/ca5/ancientgree...
Paul's constant companion was Doctor Luke, no? I'm sure they talked about "what is seen was not made out of things which are visible."
.
1 Corinthians 15:41 - Referring to and acknowledging the astrological legends of the times.
.
So it's an astrological legend that all stars are different, hey? OK and I suppose the stars that make up Leo have the ability to roam the cosmos and stalk other stars? The common belief at the time was that all stars are the same.
.
Confused. The 'same' in what way? Ancient Egyptian and Greek astrologists believed specific stars/constellations represented their glorious deities, while others were of lesser or no importance (glory). And the star's brightness (like the morning star "Lucifer"), its position, or alignment with others (like Egyptian's Orion with Thuban) in the sky was significant and predictive. All stars were not alike.
.
Job 38:19 ... Does light and dark have 'abodes', 'places', 'dwellings'? This is scientific evidence that they do?
.
No, Job 38:19,20 claims that light moves, when it was believed that light stood still. This was written a looooooooong time before science confirmed it.
.
Light emminates from the sun, moon, and stars. Did so back in Job's time too. Every culture knew these celestial bodies moved in the sky, however, ideas varied on how they moved. Some believed the ~earth~ stood motionless in the center of the universe, and the celestial bodies moved around the Earth like a giant wheel. Anaximander's (545 BC) flat Earth rested on nothing but air inside a sphere, and the Earth/Air sphere was inside another sphere which had the morning star and moon. Kinda like a ball inside a bigger ball. Then a separate sphere for the Sun around the morning star/moon sphere, another for the planets, and furthest away the sphere with the fixed stars. Each sphere rotated at different speeds and angles around the Earth/Air sphere.
.
Ecclesiastes 1:6 - In a water spout, dust devil, tornado, and hurricane, the wind blows 'round and round' too.
.
The verse states that the wind blows in cyclone when it was believed that the wind blew straight.
.
Who believed this? Any fisherman, sailor, or farmer back then could observe the winds blowing in vortex fashion.
.
Leviticus 17:11 - Yes, no blood, no life. Every soldier and livestock farmer knew that. Scientific evidence of what?
.
It was believe, until the last few hundred years, that the sick need to bleed to get healthy.
.
Not every physician believed this. And note that those who did believe it didn't drain ALL the blood from the patient - knowing he'd become weak and/or die.
.
2 Samuel 22:16 - Tee hee. Evidence of a big sneeze? Or was it a tsunami, tidal wave, severe drought, or receding tide?
.
It was believed that the ocean floors were flat. This verse, and Jonah 2:6, confirmed that the ocean floor has canyons, valleys, etc.
.
They believed the Earth was flat, so it made sense that the Earth's floor would be flat too, right? But ship captains and sailors knew that this couldn't be true, because their anchors had to be let down at different depths to touch bottom.
.
Job 38:16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?" Scientific evidence of what?
.
It was believed the oceans were fed only by rain and rivers. Once again, the Bible says otherwise.
.
The Bible says otherwise? The oceans weren't fed by rain and rivers? Of course they were. But does Job mean springs ~under~ the sea, or the above-ground springs which flowed into the sea?
.
Leviticus 15:13 " Um, yes, bathing in fresh water and washing clothes will make him clean. But will his discharge be healed in seven days? Lepers weren't cured by this ceremonial cleansing.
.
Every (good) doctor will tell you, when dealing with disease,
hands should be washed under running water, not still water like what the doctors of the time believed.
.
Leviticus notes 'fresh water'. No mention of 'running' water. Even birds and animals seek fresh water to bathe in. Jews believed in ritual cleanliness - to their credit.
.
More later.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Poetic expressions

In response to Poetic expressions posted by HeadZenCards:

.
You're making some good points.
.

-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Wrap-up reply to Kim's evidence

In response to Another reply to Kim's evidence posted by Migisi:
.
True, these are hardly scientific evidence that the Bible is true,...
.
I agree.
.
...BUT science does agree with these claims,...
.
You know, sometimes I think we moderns underestimate the intelligence and sophistication of some of the ancient cultures. Sure, they got some things wrong and believed some strange things, but they got some things right too. It's likely future generations will be saying the same about us, no?
.
unlike what BS artists such as Richard Dawkins will trick you into swallowing.
.
I haven't read his stuff to have an opinion one way or the other.
.
Personal experience isn't scientific 'evidence' unless it's been tested and the results are always the same.
.
I never said that they were, did I...
.
I assumed it, because we were talking science.
.
Sure, I had cancer cells that vanished over night after being prayed for which the doctors still haven't been able to explain, but I wouldn't say it's scientific. I was meaning that these personal experiences are more than enough to convince me.
.
Well, I'm certainly glad the cells vanished - however it happened. But what if the cells turn up again another time. Will you still be convinced?
.
I read that too. But hey, why couldn't they be aliens? From the Bible's description, they clearly weren't human or of the earth.
.
But it never said they were from another planet.:)
.
The idea has some merit. Gen. 6 reads "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward,..." I figure if these Nephilim were from Earth like Man, why specifically mention that they were on the Earth?
.
Some interesting info here on the Nephilim... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim
From there: "In Aramaic culture, the term Nephila specifically referred to the constellation of Orion, and thus Nephilim to Orion's semi-divine descendants (cf. Anakim from Anak); the implication being that this also is the origin of the Biblical Nephilim. Some commentators have suggested that the nephilim were believed to have been fathered by members of a proto-Hebrew pantheon, and are a brief glimpse of early Hebrew religion, most of the details of which were later edited out from the Torah (or at least would have been edited out when, as some claim, it was redacted together), and that this passage may have offered monotheistic Hebrews a way to fit semi-divine pagan heroes into their cosmogony."
.
But let's say he [Hitler] took an overdose and couldn't undo it, and then he repented of his sins?
.
If he repented after taking it, knowing he had made a mistake, then maybe.
.
Imagine meeting ~him~ in Heaven. Wouldn't you think it terribly unfair that God would forgive his horrific behavior simply because he said "I'm sorry. I'm a changed man. I won't do it again."? And to think you might be worried you're Hell-bound because you overslept and missed church, or cursed your mom.
.
You mean you don't care to know why God worked through people rather than do miracles himself and get all the glory - rather than share the credit with Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, etc.? I guess you've stopped questioning.
.
You could say I trust God enough not to question him.:)
.
Good enough. But it really doesn't answer the question.
.
Thanks for the discussion, Kim.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Creation Museum

In response to Wrap-up reply to Kim's evidence posted by Migisi:
.
Hey Kim, I thought you might be interested in this:
.
DefCon vs Ham's Creation Museum - a video interview on the O'Reilly Factor TV program here...
http://defconblog.org/2007/05/lawrence-k...

-- posted by Migisi