Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Answering Migisi (Post 11)

In response to Answering Migisi (Post 11) posted by Migisi:

That IS the implication of the website "Crooks and Liars" which you quote from liberally (pun intended).

» pink101 - Founding Of The U.S.A.

In response to My Rules posted by BrianTubbs:
.
I think--one of the most important founding principles of the U.S.A.--is that the colonists were opposed to the Divine Right of The King to Rule and that government is instituted to serve the people. I get a big kick how monarchists attempt to twist Romans 13 to mean that our government should be blindly obeyed because of what Paul wrote there. The People are the Rulers in America! We might be nasty in a lot of ways, but it's our country and we are the rulers. It's been that way for a long, long time. That was the basis for the civil war that turned into the Revolutionary War, was it not? Yes it was! Adamanately! How about that Ethan Allen?
.
Our Founding Documents claim each person is endowed with inalienable rights. When governments serve the ideologies of some religion, no matter which one, they put the right of the governed to rule in jeopardy.
.
So, this idea that the U.S.A. was founded to be a religious nation is plain unadulterated B.S.
.
Let's get that settled for once and for all time.
.

-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Founding Of The U.S.A.

In response to Founding Of The U.S.A. posted by pink101:

I'll answer this in a separate thread. Let's bring this thread back to debate over the "reality of Jesus."

» pink101 - Founding Of The U.S.A.

In response to Founding Of The U.S.A. posted by BrianTubbs:
.
Sounds good.
./

-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Answering Migisi (Post 11)

In response to Answering Migisi (Post 11) posted by BrianTubbs:

.
It's simply where I learned about Ken Ham's museum.
.
Is this better?
Hey Kim, if you're ever in the states, visit Kentucky....
http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/w...

-- posted by Migisi

» EvilChihuahua - Falderow Set Aside (long)

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by Migisi:

I agree there's evidence that historical events occurred. But the mention of these events in the Bible isn't evidence that a supernatural force orchestrated or influenced those events.

And that, my friend, is where faith comes in.:)

Yes, originally, the idea (Chaldean and Egyptian) was that the earth was a flat table.

What was the shape of this "table"? Many believed it was square.

Not 'everyone' believed that. Some cultures believed the earth-island floated on a congealed fluid under the lower heaven, and others believed the earth disk was held up by 12 solid pillars.

I take that back. I'll say instead that it was a common belief that the Earth sat on the back of an animal or the Titan Atlas. I should also point out that many, many Hebrews belive that at the time.

Job 28:25 - "When He imparted weight to the wind And meted out the waters by measure,.." If you look at the preceding verse, it reads - '24 "For He looks to the ends of the earth.." If the Jews believed the earth was a sphere, where would one find 'ends' on a spherical earth?

So I believe the new Pirates movie lies to us since it features World's End. It could have been a figure of speech, or the fact that the author of Job believed the end was flat. The Jews didn't believe the Earth was a sphere, but Isaiah did unintentionally point out that the Earth was round. When he was granted a vision of the Earth he saw something like this...

http://www.harmsy.freeuk.com/images/eart...

To someone who grew up believing the Earth was flat, it is easy to mistake this sphere for a circle.

Isaiah 11:12 "... and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." Where does one find 'corners' on a sphere or circle? The pre-Babylonians believed in a four-cornered earth, and the East-Semites received the idea from their predecessors, the Akkado-Sumarians.

The four corners of the Earth: North, South, East and West. We use the expression today even, but it doesn't mean we believe the Earth is flat.

Job 26:7 - "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing." Ever wonder why he stretched out only the 'north'? According to the Babylonians, the northern half of the earth was called the 'upper' - associated with life and light. The southern half was called the 'under' - associated with darkness and death. The South and the Underworld are identical. Neat, huh?

Are you ignoring that it states right there that the Earth floats freely? The verse doesn't tell us about what the Babylonians believe, but tells us exactly what is reality: the Earth floats freely in space.

There were fossils of Behemoth found?

Yes, it goes under the clssification Titanosaur.

The dinosaur theory is from the Young Earth Creationists.

It also comes from Crypozoology, which is what I had in mind. All over the world in remote places, people have claimed to have sighted real live dinosaurs, and I'm not talking about crackpots. Scientists, explorers, repected members of the scientific community. There's Mokele-mbembe in the Congo, Kasai Rex in the jungles of central Africa, the many, many lake monsters scattered across the planet and Emela-Ntouka, other Congo resident. And lets not forget that every culture has it's own dragon myths, from the Wyverns in France to the Bunyips of Australia. In fact, the similarities between the Wyvern and the Pteranodon are uncanny, much like the similarities between the Behemoth and a Titanosaur.

Jeremiah 33:22 - 'As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.'" What 'evidence' are you presenting here? That the sand and heavenly bodies can't be counted? Okay, I'll go with that. But what does it prove?

It refers to the number of stars, which is beyond count. The common belief at the time was that there was only 1,100 stars.

Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." Yes, the microscope hadn't been invented yet. But the idea that things were made up of smaller parts which couldn't be seen by the naked eye existed ~well~ before Paul.

What were these things and could they enable us to see atoms?

1 Corinthians 15:41 - "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory." Referring to and acknowledging the astrological legends of the times

So it's an astrological legend that all stars are different, hey? OK and I suppose the stars that make up Leo have the ability to roam the cosmos and stalk other stars? The common belief at the time was that all stars are the same.

Job 38:19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?" Does light and dark have 'abodes', 'places', 'dwellings'? This is scientific evidence that they do?

No, Job 38:19,20 claims that light moves, when it was believed that light stood still. This was written a looooooooong time before science confirmed it.

Ecclesiastes 1:6 - "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course." The wind also blows east and west. In a water spout, dust devil, tornado, and hurricane, the wind blows 'round and round' too.

The verse states that the wind blows in cyclone when it was believed that the wind blew straight.

Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life."
Yes, no blood, no life. Every soldier and livestock farmer knew that. Scientific evidence of what?

It was believe, until the last few hundred years, that the sick need to bleed to get healthy.

2 Samuel 22:16 - "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils." Tee hee. Evidence of a big sneeze? Or was it a tsunami, tidal wave, severe drought, or receding tide?

It was believed that the ocean floors were flat. This verse, and Jonah 2:6, confirmed that the ocean floor has canyons, valleys, etc.

Job 38:16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?" Scientific evidence of what?

It was believed the oceans were fed only by rain and rivers. Once again, the Bible says otherwise.

Leviticus 15:13 " 'When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean." Um, yes, bathing in fresh water and washing clothes will make him clean. But will his discharge be healed in seven days? Lepers weren't cured by this ceremonial cleansing.

Every (good) doctor will tell you, when dealing with disease,
hands should be washed under running water, not still water like what the doctors of the time believed.

True, these are hardly scientific evidence that the Bible is true, BUT science does agree with these claims, unlike what BS artists such as Richard Dawkins will trick you into swallowing.

Personal experience isn't scientific 'evidence' unless it's been tested and the results are always the same.

I never said that they were, did I. Sure, I had cancer cells that vanished over night after being prayed for which the doctors still haven't been able to explain, but I wouldn't say it's scientific. I was meaning that these personal experiences are more than enough to convince me.

I read that too. But hey, why couldn't they be aliens? From the Bible's description, they clearly weren't human or of the earth.

But it never said they were from another planet.:)

Yes. Pinky corrected me that Hitler was shot. But let's say he took an overdose and couldn't undo it, and then he repented of his sins?

If he repented after taking it, knowing he had made a mistake, then maybe.

You mean you don't care to know why God worked through people rather than do miracles himself and get all the glory - rather than share the credit with Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, etc.? I guess you've stopped questioning.

You could say I trust God enough not to question him.:)

-- posted by EvilChihuahua

» EvilChihuahua - Answering Migisi (Post 11)

In response to Answering Migisi (Post 11) posted by Migisi:

Yeah, I've heard about. I often go on the AIG website (I am a Creationist BTW). I wouldn't mind visiting it. However if I visited Kentucky it'd be to see the Colonel's museum. Now that's a real hero. He made chicken taste better, and chicken is awesome to start with.:)

-- posted by EvilChihuahua

» Migisi - Falderow Set Aside (long)

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by EvilChihuahua:

.
Thanks for the reply here, Kim. I'll get back to it later. It's midnight here, and I've got company coming over tomorrow. Time for sleep. Have a great day.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Falderow Set Aside (long)

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by EvilChihuahua:

.
What was the shape of this "table"? Many believed it was square.
.
From the illustrations I've seen, the Earth with solid columns (and one with roots) was like a coin - round and flat. The Egyptian ~~universe~~ was rectangular instead of round. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. I know of the 'square Earth' theory, which came from a 6th century A.D. monk who wrote 'Christian Topography'. Other cultures of the time believed the Earth was shaped like a boat, and another like a half-hemisphere. Lots of different configurations.
.
I'll say instead that it was a common belief that the Earth sat on the back of an animal or the Titan Atlas. I should also point out that many, many Hebrews belive that at the time.
.
True about animals - and men holding up the Earth - but other things too. India, China, and Egypt, had the Earth floating on and rooted in universal waters. Hindus had it held up by elephants standing on a turtle. Mexicans had Quetzalcoatl (God of the Sun, of earthquake, and water) holding everything up. The Altaics of Northern Siberia had three great fish holding up the Earth. The Tartars of Asia-Europe believed a bull stood on a fish, and other tribes had the Great Mammoth. Hebrew myth has one great fish-like creature - Leviathan - supporting the Earth. It's hard to believe that 'many' Hebrews believed the Earth was held up by the pagan Greek mythical god Atlas, son of Poseidon. But the Atlas myth did survive time. For medieval Europe, Atlas represented the Macrocosm, or the "Great Man". Fun stuff, isn't it. Man has such a creative mind.
.
The Jews didn't believe the Earth was a sphere, but Isaiah did unintentionally point out that the Earth was round.
.
He says "the circle of the earth". A coin is circular - yet flat. Both descriptions would fit, no? Other bible depictions support the flat-Earth. In Daniel, the king 'saw a tree of great height at the center of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.' The tree would've been visible to 'the earth's farthest bounds' on a flat earth, but not on a sphere. When Jesus was tempted by Satan, '..the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world..." Again, this would be possible only if the earth was flat. The same thing with Revelation 1:7: 'Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...' I'm NOT saying the Earth is flat. The Bible writers were. The ancient Hebrews had the Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and might also reflect Egyptian cosmology.
.
In 240 BC, Eratosthenes, was able to prove the Earth was a sphere and estimate its size by comparing the angle of the sun at two distant locations at the same time. Aristotle also knew the earth was a sphere, by the horizon, the Earth's circular shadow during lunar eclipses, and other natural things. One would think the Jews would've discontinued the flat-Earth concept, but it continued into the New Testament.
.
When he was granted a vision of the Earth he saw something like this...
.
Cool pic. But how do you know Isaiah envisioned this?
.
More later... my company is here.

-- posted by Migisi

» EvilChihuahua - Falderow Set Aside (long)

In response to Falderow Set Aside (long) posted by Migisi:

You too. I got the Flu at the moment. It'll be winter in few days here.:)

-- posted by EvilChihuahua