Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Agree AND disagree

In response to If you have to ask... posted by Migisi:

Migisi, let me break down what you said here...

Once evangelists become politicians, it's open season on them just like any other politician.

I agree, although I think Larry Flynt went WAY over the top with Hustler's depiction of Falwell. And I might add that I think public discourse in GENERAL had deteriorated in America - and we should NOT be happy with that.

When they openly demonize just about everyone, they should expect backlash from those they've targeted.

Falwell apologized for most of his outrageous, extremist comments. However, I don't think it's "demonizing" people to DISAGREE with their choices and/or lifestyles and/or ideologies.

They are not above criticism just because they're in the church business.

I agree, but with TWO HUGE caveats...

1) TIMING of the criticism is important. Right now, those of us who liked and respected Falwell (and ESPECIALLY those who loved him - like the students at Liberty, his church members, and his family) are in mourning. Some sensitivity with respect to timing would be appreciated - and is not unreasonable to ask for.

2) Criticism of religious leaders and/or religious organizations must be handled fairly. Bible-believing evangelical Christians are OFTEN criticized by non-Christians for being "hateful" simply because they believe in Hell and believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. The problem with the criticism is that's made from the premise that Christians somehow WANT people they disagree with to go to hell or somehow have the power to send people there. I believe in hell, but I have NO POWER and NO DESIRE to see anyone go there. But, I'm not going to jettison my belief in the Bible or in Christianity - and start preaching that there is no hell. That would be dishonest, and I shouldn't be expected to do so, in order to be seen as loving and caring. This is the nature of a lot of criticism, though, that's out there with respect to religious figures - and it's unfair.

» pink101 - Agree AND disagree

In response to Agree AND disagree posted by BrianTubbs:
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I think Larry Flynt went WAY over the top with Hustler's depiction of Falwell. And I might add that I think public discourse in GENERAL had deteriorated in America - and we should NOT be happy with that.
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We cannot fault Flynt for the defense of his own integrity as he uses the tools of free speech or a free press. That invites an abridgement of our own rights. As Americans in defense of our founding principles we must defend Flynt regardless of how we feel about his presentations. To go in the area you're suggesting is to venture in constitutional quick sand.
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While you are in this period of funery for Falwell you might recognize that he was and is not seen as a universal icon of good. Generally, when a person dies, the bereaved isolate themselves from the world and retreat into private places. This is not a private place nor is it hallowed in any way whatsoever. Attempts to limit speech won't be well received.
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But, your post hightlights an important point. I notice that some who want to be bold also have a tendancy to want to limit what others present from time to time. It's worth a look see.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Agree AND disagree

In response to Agree AND disagree posted by pink101:

Generally, when a person dies, the bereaved isolate themselves from the world

I think you do a make a good point about the nature of a public person and especially someone as controversial as Jerry Falwell. My original post tried to draw attention to only two issues regarding the clip. The first issue was that few leaders are treated fairly when viewed only from the perspective of their opponents. And the second issue, nobody has commented on. The issue raised in the clip that Falwell was insincere about his beliefs and rose to the level of con man. I'm still looking for any evidence of that very cheap shot.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - My Basic Point Is That

In response to Agree AND disagree posted by pink101:
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My basic point is that Falwell turned himself into a public figure and when he did that he lost all rights to be a private person.
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That is a fact of life in a free society.
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Brother Jones notes that "nobody has commented on [the] issue raised in the clip that Falwell was insincere about his beliefs and rose to the level of con man. I'm still looking for any evidence of that very cheap shot."
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I don't know how anyone can comment on that, do you? Can I read your inner thoughts? It's easy to call the kettle black.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - My Basic Point Is That

In response to My Basic Point Is That posted by pink101:

I don't know how anyone can comment on that, do you? Can I read your inner thoughts? It's easy to call the kettle black.

Well in the case of the famous Sinclair Lewis novel, Elmer Gantry led a double life and had plenty of witnesses to the idea that he was interested in money and fame, more than ministry.

I agree with you about the inner life and heart. Nobody can discern the heart except God, but the evidence in Falwell's life is that he lived consistent with being a disciple of Christ. At least to the point that he was loved by family, friends, and members of his church for living a life of a Pastor, Father, Husband, and Friend.
And he was highly spoken of by his loved ones. And that is important when reflecting on his work, I think.

Religious scammers need to be exposed for preying on the lost. And I think most of the time their own personal life is in shambles.

Falwell reached out to the lost and prayed for the lost with a sincere spirit, it certainly appears to me by looking at the evidence of his life.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» pink101 - Give Voice To

In response to My Basic Point Is That posted by Brother_Jones:
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In a certain way, I hate to say it, I come here to learn; so, I might not always say what it is that I believe. I've been caught in some inconsistencies. I'm sure you've noticed. One of them was about you.
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In any event, are you able to give voice to a concept about which you do not believe?
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That is no little question. And, this is especially true in a forum such as we have here or about the greater forum in which Falwell became such an icon as you point toward.
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Can you fault a man for giving voice to that in which he does not believe? Does it take away his integrity--making him less a person?
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The question bears serious consideration. Can you deal with it?
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-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - Give Voice To

In response to Give Voice To posted by pink101:

give voice to a concept about which you do not believe?

ABC. Like a woman president. I want to believe it. I know in my heart, it is right. But I'm worried that the first time she stood up and presented a mean tough stance to the World, the world would be shocked as all heck. . We can't let go of certain ideas that God put in our hearts to always keep us returning home to the rocking chair.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» HeadZenCards - If you have to ask...

In response to If you have to ask... posted by Migisi:

http://www.bettybowers.com/nl_may2007.ht...

Check out Betty Bowers' screed. She is America's Best Christian.

A snipet:

"After Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell and sundry other greedy frauds, it's a wonder the Lord hasn't pulled the licenses on all of His American franchises. But the 2,000-or-so-year delay in the perennially postponed Second Coming (to say nothing of sitting out that whole Holocaust thing) proves that the Lord is in no particular rush to do much of anything. Nevertheless, even the laziest deity must grow increasingly exercised (and trigger happy) in the face of someone devoting his entire life to giving that God a bad name. So, let's face it: when the Jerry said the Lord had revealed to him that he was living in the Final Days, a follow-up question for more specifics might not have been remiss."

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Brian Tubbs - FRED PHELPS on Falwell

This is too good to pass up. This should (though I know with some of you, it won't) put to rest the myth that Jerry Falwell is a hate-filled bigot along the lines of Fred Phelps (who Migisi mentioned earlier)....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,2733...

» Brother_Jones - FRED PHELPS on Falwell

In response to FRED PHELPS on Falwell posted by BrianTubbs:

hate-filled bigot along the lines of Fred Phelps

Its like there is a spirit of harassment that attaches itself to some people. Folks sometimes get angry and irritated by religious convictions, but this kind of pushing and shoving, and hating in this media clip is pretty rare I hope. It certainly is on both sides of the question of Jesus. Otherwise calm, sensible people turn hostile when Jesus is mentioned. I know that I am accused of being too dogmatic from time to time. And it is sobering to think of the words of Christ who told us to make friends with our accusers while we are headed to court. (matt 5:25)

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones