Protestantism

» paper_turtle - Back to your original question

In response to TODAY - May 17, 2007 posted by pink101:

Agenda (which, BTW is the plural of agendum) refers to items on a list to be discussed or considered before a group of people. It usually has a political or bureaucratic connotation.

When we ask someone what his/her agenda is, the implication is that the person has some hidden motive for acting/speaking.

Brian referred to a mission statement. To me this is something quite different than having an agenda. A mission statement implies, to me, having a vision one would like to realize. The mission statement, then, details the steps necessary to realize that vision.

My perception is we all come here with similar hopes or intentions. We want to present what we value, and perhaps convince others to value it too. We want to share something of ourselves with others. We want to learn. We enjoy writing/communicating. We like to think.

What we value is about more than the beliefs we hold. What we truly value is evident in how we behave in relation to others, and what we say. If I say I value truth but every word I write is obviously a lie, then I do not really value truth, but only the appearance of truth.

What I value is (to name only a few) love, tolerance, respect, peace, justice, and (or course) love. I value fairness, thinking which balances logic with compassion, non-judgmentalism, open-mindedness, and personal responsibility.

I freely admit I am a fallible human who does not always live up to what I value. None of us does. I freely admit to having misperceptions, preconceived notions, and false beliefs. We all do.

Still, I persevere, as do we all. I believe that my conduct here on the net and in real life should seek to promote what I value. If I truly value peace I must manifest peace--to the best of my ability, in any circumstance (allowing, of course, for the possibility that occasionally I will lapse into something less than my best). And so on. If I cannot manifest what I profess, then I believe its wisest for me to shut up until I can authentically manifest it.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Back to your original question

In response to Back to your original question posted by paper_turtle:
.
It's a tough call, Sister Turtle.
.
It is opinions and mind sets along with personal beliefs that go deep into familial roots here at Suite101. To expect any participant to turn around in a change of direction regarding things they learned on their mother's lap or at their father's knee is almost as futile as it is for a hound dog to bay at the moon.
.
Why do we come here putting our thoughts on the table? Do we really expect anyone to accept that which we present as though it were truth? Do we? How often have any of us seen any participant here admit to any error or ever express a slight change of mind? Is any one here any less sure of their thoughts in any way than they were when they first arrived? If anything, haven't some gone even more deeply into their ideologies than they were at the start?
.
But, we all like to think we're different. At least, I like to think I am. :~) But, am I?
.
I do like to search for truth and I do think I have the ability to change my mind. Just this morning I was reading some history about Douglas MacArthur and Harry Truman and I think I may have changed an understanding of those two that I had held on to for fifty years. But, maybe I'm just wishy washy?
.
I would like to be able to change my mind about everything once I have better evidence. It seems to me that, if I couldn't change, then I'm the less for it.
.
.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Back to your original question

In response to Back to your original question posted by pink101:

Do we really expect anyone to accept that which we present as though it were truth?

Well, we all present what is true for us, from a frame of reference built upon our own unique set of experiences and perceptions. Some of the things we hold as true were passed on to us by others, beginning with our parents. BUT even so, we filter that through our own lens.

The problem develops when we believe our truth is THE ONLY truth, and we believe ourselves to be the sole protector of, and advocate for, that truth.

In this particular arena we are mostly discussing things which are matters of belief. I believe in God, another does not. I can't prove God exists. The person who does not believe cannot prove God does not exist. So ... why not give up trying to prove what *both* of us have accepted on faith?

Very often, though, that's not what happens here. We spend hours trying to persuade someone of something which is a matter of faith. This applies to one's view of the world (political or natural), or perception of his neighbor, or whether or not a Chevvy or a Toyota is the best car in the world. Why can't we just stop trying to be right, and simply listen?

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Back At You Again

In response to Back to your original question posted by paper_turtle:
.
"...we all present what is true for us..."
.
That gets us over into the area that there are different truths, yours, mine, and someone else's. But, that cannot be. There is only one truth in the final analysis.
.
My point is that we must be prepared to change our mind about what we think is the truth. If we can't do that, why should we expect anyone to change their mind? That's the major cause of sectarian violence in the world today.
.
So, by logic, we must come here to test our own ideas. What do you think?
..
:~)
.
.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - Back At You Again

In response to Back At You Again posted by pink101:

There is only one truth in the final analysis.
.
This depends on what you mean by "truth." In a way, though, this is YOUR truth, and may not necessarily be held as true by everyone.

So, by logic, we must come here to test our own ideas. What do you think?

We need to bounce our ideas off another, otherwise we end up living on our own little planet. We also need feedback on whether or not we are presenting our ideas clearly, and to their best advantage. We need to be challenged to see if the foundational principles which led to our conclusions really stack up as we think they do.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - Not Truth: But Perspective

In response to Back At You Again posted by paper_turtle:
.
Technically speaking, not truth; but, perspective seems the better word here, Sister.
.
I have no truth but reality. As light highlights reality, truth is exposed. That gives meaning to the word, being.
.
Can you dig that?
.
I'll be back. I have some errands to run.
.

-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - To Discover Truth

In response to Not Truth: But Perspective posted by pink101:
.
The operative word when truth is involved is discover.
.
The word, discover, means to remove the cover from sometihing.
.
To discover truth is to take away that which covers it from our knowledge.
.
If I say I have my own truth, I am only saying that, so far, this is what I consider to be the truth.
.
In other words, I cannot truly claim to know the truth as it can be eventually discovered.
.
Does that make any sense to you?
.
Does it make sense to anyone?
.

-- posted by pink101

» paper_turtle - To Discover Truth

In response to To Discover Truth posted by pink101:

Truth, as you are using the word, implies something which is absolutely, incontrovertably true. Something everyone would regard as self-evident.

The difficulty is that no one is capable of complete objectivity.

And, the sorts of things which one might point to as truth cannot be proven beyond all shadow of doubt.

This does not negate the worth of truth/truths as objectives or ideals, but we only know truth from a limited (fallibly human) perspective.

And pursuing truth is still a valid goal--as long as (IMHO) we understand no one knows anything for absolute sure.

peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» pink101 - To Discover Truth

In response to To Discover Truth posted by paper_turtle:
.
And pursuing truth is still a valid goal--as long as (IMHO) we understand no one knows anything for absolute sure.
.
And, so, in that case you have to be ready to change your mind about what you think you know about truth.
.
There! We made it to the first stop.
.

-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Back to your original question

In response to Back to your original question posted by pink101:

.
To expect any participant to turn around in a change of direction regarding things they learned on their mother's lap or at their father's knee is almost as futile .... Is any one here any less sure of their thoughts in any way than they were when they first arrived?
.
I don't think we can 'expect' anyone to change their minds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen on its own. If you review my posts in the archived threads when I first arrived at Suite, and compare my posts today, you will see an about-face in my beliefs. Migisi is a different person than Fundy Hawknut.
.
Given the variety of POVs, how can one avoid rethinking one's position on things? That doesn't automatically mean a change of position. As you say, one's beliefs may be reinforced and strengthened. Another may come to doubt and/or disbelief. If anything, we are forced to THINK about what we took for granted and were taught to believe as true. At our ages here, we are far from our Mama's lap and Daddy's knee. We can change our minds, and speak our minds, without fear of a spanking.

-- posted by Migisi