Protestantism

» pink101 - Another Fun Day For Ollie?

In response to Jesus Said, "Suffer ..." posted by HeadZenCards:
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Another fun day for Ollie?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Jesus Said, "Suffer ..."

In response to Jesus Said, "Suffer ..." posted by HeadZenCards:

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Hee hee. I laughed out loud at that, Ollie. As a kid, suffering meant wearing a stiff nylon-mesh slip under my Sunday dress (to make it poof out). Imagine sitting on cactus needles or a bed of tacks. The longer the Mass, the more I squirmed, the more Mom thumped me on the head.

-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - Jesus Said, "Suffer ..."

In response to Jesus Said, "Suffer ..." posted by Migisi:

Bless you and all the time we children suffered.

A boy a few years older than me would sit with me in church and squeeze my arm until it turned blue. I would try to fight back without moving around too much. If my aim was true, he never had children of his own.

After my Congregationalist church service was over (my Dad was the substitute preacher), a group of us kids would go over to the Jewish pharmacist (the only store open downtown on Sunday) and steal candy from him.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Brian Tubbs - Infants

In response to Nature of God posted by HeadZenCards:

I contend that no infant or suckling EVER committed a "sin" that justifies their utter destruction.

How about you?

I agree. And no infant or young child has been "utterly destroyed" by God. The Bible teaches that all individuals who die before the age (or point) of accountability are held as innocent and go to heaven.

» Migisi - Infants

In response to Infants posted by BrianTubbs:

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The Bible teaches that all individuals who die before the age (or point) of accountability are held as innocent and go to heaven.
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Does the Bible teach this?
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.h...
(quote) "The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see BAPTISM, subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul's teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq.)." (end)
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My Catholic catechism taught that only baptised infants went to Heaven. Unbaptised infants went to Limbo. Catholic tradition (doctrine) said we are ~born~ sinful, having inherited 'original sin'. Therefore, unless a baby was purified of sin and reborn through baptism, they could not enter heaven. If you'd like to know more about Limbo, go to the site I posted above. Some interesting ideas there, I think.
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A snippet from that site:
(quote) "...St. Gregory of Nazianzus may be taken as representative: 'It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished. [Orat., xl, 23]
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"In his earlier writings St. Augustine himself agrees with the common tradition. Thus in De libero arbitrio III, written several years before the Pelagian controversy, discussing the fate of unbaptized infants after death, he writes: 'It is superfluous to inquire about the merits of one who has not any merits. For one need not hesitate to hold that life may be neutral as between good conduct and sin, and that as between reward and punishment there may be a neutral sentence of the judge." (end)
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In my family, grandmothers baptised newborns 'by will and by water' the day they arrived home from the hospital. There was no waiting for a priest and official church ceremony - lest the baby die before the ritual was performed.
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-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - Infants

In response to Infants posted by BrianTubbs:

Christians allow their infants to live past the age of accountability because they do not believe that the Bible teaches that all individuals who die before the age (or point) of accountability are held as innocent and go to heaven, Brian.

If they believed what you believe the Bible teaches, more Christians would be tempted by that evil idea to kill their children before they "sinned", because, as Christian preachers love to say, this life is so insignificant and the afterlife is forever, and infants go to the eternal heaven if they die but teenagers (or where DO you draw that accountability line, Brian?) sin like crazy and sinning like crazy doesn't get your name written in the book of life. Or does it, Brian?

Why doesn't every True Christian find some way to get to heaven quick, before they stub their toe and use His name in vain, or have sex with a fornicator, and Jesus' Great Eraser sends them to hell for an offense that they have yet to commit?

Could it be that they have doubt that there is a heaven, or a heaven half as great as this Earth?

Revelation (in the NT last time I checked) has Jesus saying:

2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

2:23 And I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Gentle Jesus killing a bad woman's children? Don't worry, they will go to heaven, right Brian?

Read on, surely we'll find that part: The part where Jesus says he will let bad people's children into heaven.

Let's see. Hmmmmmmm....

Rev. 20:15 And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where is the verse that says Jesus wrote Jezebel's children's names in the book of life?

It's not there.

Brian, you say that no infant or child has been "utterly destroyed" by God.

I agree, but only because there is no God.

But that is beside the point: Human beings' ideas about God are the great danger.

Human beings love to imitate. So, worshiping violent "Gods" coarsens people's natural sweetness.

Brian, you agree with this about every God man has ever invented, except the LORD GOD.

But one day you and everyone who reads this post will come to understand, hopefully at least one day before your life passes you by and you've missed all the great experiences you can have on this Earth without the idea of a violent LORD GOD clogging your mind with judgmental nonsense.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» HeadZenCards - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by pink101:

Old? Pinky, I've got socks older than you, handed down to me from my brother.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Migisi - Infants

In response to Infants posted by HeadZenCards:
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If they believed what you believe the Bible teaches, more Christians would be tempted by that evil idea to kill their children before they "sinned",..
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They indeed have killed their children to 'save' them from the sinful world - to usher them into heaven. Think Flavoraid and Valium, drowning them in a bath tub, or bashing their skulls with a rock or brick. We're horrified when we hear such things, but why? The God of the Bible killed children. I've even heard preachers claim that the OT God killed children to 'save' them from their evil parent's fate (Hell). So why are we horrified to hear about God's faithful imitating him?
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or where DO you draw that accountability line,
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Good question. At what age do children become accountable? Let's just say accountability begins around 4 or 5 years old. This would mean that if a 4 or 5 year-old curses his parents or is disobedient, (s)he can and should be stoned to death - according to the Bible.
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Nahum 1.2 - "The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies."
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God is wrathful, vengeful, jealous, and angry every day. And I should want to have a relationship with him?!
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Ah, but Christians say "That's the OLD Testament. Jesus came to bring the new covenant." Here's an answer to that: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/butthatsth...

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - Infants

In response to Infants posted by Migisi:
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Anyone who has raised children knows that around age three, there is a move on their part to claim they have a right to make every demand on their environment.
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Every child has screamed, Mine!, when someone else attempted to take something away. How the parent responds to that time in the child's development sets the model for how the individual will react for the rest of its life. What kind of "bringing up" or "rearing" did those people receive that made them think their "god" wanted them to do its bidding about anything?
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-- posted by pink101

» HeadZenCards - Infants

In response to Infants posted by Migisi:

Wonderful post and link!

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/killchildr... is great also.

I doubt that Brian will respond intelligently to either our responses or links. After all, Jesus sends all infants to heaven, which makes the brutality they suffer AOK by him.

Not that I'm rushing Brian to respond or anything, but he did want to "confront" this idea of mine, as if I, being a wacko, was the only one in the world to think this way.

-- posted by HeadZenCards