Protestantism

» Brian Tubbs - Nature of God

We'll have to tie up any further questions and uncertainties as we go along. My efforts to seek clarification have met with accusations that I'm "obfuscating" the issue. So, I'll proceed, in spite of the wide scope of the issue - and much disagreement in all likelihood over the terms and the understandings of the passages in question.

First Point...God was an equal opportunity punisher of sin. God did not single out the non-Jewish peoples for punishment. His hatred of sin crossed all borders, and included even Israel. In fact, His standard for Israel was higher.

Second Point...we MUST agree on the nature of God. This is not obfuscation, but is extremely important. If we are to indict the God of the Bible - and Migisi at least makes clear that we are to do so - then we must accept ALL of the biblical God. In other words, I'm not going to let anyone pick and choose on God's qualities. If we're going to attack the biblical, Judeo-Christian Jehovah God, then let's understand Him - on HIS terms, according to the Bible. That's only fair since His opponents here are USING the Bible to condemn Him.

The biblical Jehovah God (from now on referred to simply as "God") would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. This means He would know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE who lived on planet earth then and now (and at all other points as well).

Therefore, God has the ultimate POV (point-of-view) and we must appreciate this fact when we presume to judge HIM from our limited POV. Our point-of-view is that of thousands of years after these events took place - with only the biblical record to go by. What's more, we don't know the people (the Israelites nor the Canaanites) on any kind of a meaningful level. God did. IF He is God, that is.

If we don't agree on the above points, then it will likely be impossible for us to come to ANY consensus or agreement on this very sensitive issue - the issue of Bible atrocities.

» Brian Tubbs - Today

One additional point -

These instances of God ordering the killing of certain peoples in the Old Testament apply ONLY to the Old Testament - and only to the Israelites.

Oliver outright charges that God expects his followers today to keep on "killing children." This is an outrageous charge and it's completely baseless. We are under the New Testament now, Oliver.

» Migisi - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by BrianTubbs:
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God was an equal opportunity punisher of sin. God did not single out the non-Jewish peoples for punishment. His hatred of sin crossed all borders, and included even Israel.
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True enough. God ~did~ kill his own children too. Because he killed indiscriminately, that makes it okay?
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Evidence for the Prosecution:
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/...
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The biblical Jehovah God (from now on referred to simply as "God") would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present.
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Let's look at some scripture re 'all-knowing'...
--- In Gen 3, Adam and Eve hid themselves in the Garden, and God asked "Where art thou?"
--- Gen 3:11 - "And he [God] said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
--- Job 1:7 - "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?" If God knew everything, why all the questions?
--- Hosea 8:4 - "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not.." Hmm, God personally admits that he didn't know something.
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How about 'everywhere present'?
--- Gen 11:5 - "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower [Babel], which the children of men built." He wasn't everywhere present, but had to go down to see it.
--- Gen 18:21 - "I will go down [to Sodom/Gomorrah] now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." He wasn't all-knowing or everywhere present here either, but had to go down to see for himself if what he'd heard was true.
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And all-powerful?
--- Judges 1:19 - "The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were UNABLE to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots." Seems it didn't matter if the all-powerful Lord was with them or not.
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This means He would know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE who lived on planet earth then and now (and at all other points as well)..
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Why didn't God know that the serpent was in the Garden corrupting his kids? Why did God have the Jews mark their doors with blood before he killed the firstborns if he already knew where everyone lived (Passover). Why did the NT God allow Herod to massacre hundreds of innocent babies if God knew Joseph and Mary had already fled with Jesus to Egypt? After all, God had already sent an angel to Joseph telling him to leave. There are so many questions like these which beg for answers.
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Therefore, God has the ultimate POV (point-of-view) and we must appreciate this fact when we presume to judge HIM from our limited POV.
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Gen 3:22 - "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, ~~knowing~~ good and evil."

-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by BrianTubbs:

Thank you for your thoughtful, educated responses.

To your first point, that God's hatred of sin crossed all borders: What "sin" does an infant or a suckling commit, even if the infant's parents are bad people?

I contend that no infant or suckling EVER committed a "sin" that justifies their utter destruction.

How about you?

Let's take your comment that "we are under the New Testament now, Oliver" as if it had merit. Here's a passage from the New Testament:

Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore, you, as a believer in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, will be told to depart from him if you do not do the will of Jesus' Father. True?

Do you deny that, at one time, the will of Jesus' Father was the following?

1 Sam. 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and UTTERLY DESTROY all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Are you sure that the future will of Jesus' Father, the LORD GOD, is known to you?

If not, then you must be ready to follow it to the point of utterly destroying infants and sucklings or Jesus WILL NOT let you into heaven.

Personally, I'd rather go to hell than have to follow the LORD GOD's will if it ever required that I would have to utterly destroy ANY infants and sucklings.

How about you?

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» pink101 - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by HeadZenCards:
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Good logic.
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Well put.
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:)
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At least I think so.
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-- posted by pink101

» HeadZenCards - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by pink101:

You are very kind, Pinky.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» pink101 - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by pink101:
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Kind?
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Kind of what?
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Kind of old, that's what.
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I'm gone now.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Nature of God

In response to Nature of God posted by pink101:
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And, now I'm back. I had a good work out at the club.
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And, it does feel good to work out.
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-- posted by pink101

» pink101 - Jesus Said, "Suffer ..."

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Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me for, of such, is the kingdom of heaven."
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What does that mean?
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-- posted by pink101

» HeadZenCards - Jesus Said, "Suffer ..."

In response to Jesus Said, "Suffer ..." posted by pink101:

I used to think that meant "Make the little children suffer by going to Sunday School and put up with Miss Rash and her body odor."

-- posted by HeadZenCards