Protestantism

» Brother_Jones - God & Children

In response to God & Children posted by BrianTubbs:

As a Christian, I include Jesus in the phrase "biblical God"

Uh oh, not a good way to win friends in this crowd. If this is your only gig, you might consider being a lightning rod in your next job.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones

» HeadZenCards - God & Children

In response to God & Children posted by BrianTubbs:

You ask what the biblical God's view of children was.

The answer, in the fiction that is the Bible, is found when we see what the LORD GOD let happen to His Only Begotten Son.

In the fiction that is the Bible, as an example to future parents, and as the only way this slow witted butcher could figure out how to save the world he supposedly created from HIMSELF, the LORD GOD allowed his OWN SON to be brutally tortured and killed.

The LORD GOD, in the fiction that is the Bible, also called on his followers to murder infants and sucklings. Think about it!

If a human being with influence over a few people one day demanded that his followers murder infants and sucklings, you would not argue that, well, that fellow does not call on his followers to murder children EVERY DAY, so, deep down, he's OK.

Calling for the murder of infants and sucklings one time is enough to show what kind of character Christians who have read the Bible worship and would obey.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Migisi - Suffer the children

.
Just some biblical examples:
.
The Flood killed everyone except Noah and his immediate family. Innocent infants, children, and unborn babies were killed in the Flood God sent.
.
Chapters 11 & 12 of Exodus, God sent a series of plagues to torment all the inhabitants of Egypt - including the kids. When that didn't serve his purpose, he killed all the firstborn children of Egypt.
.
Deuteronomy 7 & 20, and Joshua -- After wandering in the desert for forty years, God ordered the Hebrews to invade the 'promised land' and totally exterminate the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. God ordered them to leave "alive nothing that breathes." They were ordered to kill the soldiers of these peoples, and then murder the defenseless elderly, women, youths, children, infants, and newborns.
.
Exodus 20 - Joshua butchered twelve thousand - everyone who lived in Ai, including the children.
.
In Judges 21, God orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead. Children too - except for the virgin ~girls~ who were taken to be raped and married off.
.
In 2 Kings 10, God commends and awards Jehu for the murder of Ahab's 70 sons, and everyone in Ahab's house.
.
Hosea 13:16 - "The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."
.
In 2 Samuel 12:11-14, God punished David for his sin by killing his 7-day-old newborn.
.
1 Samuel 15:3 (Ollie's favorite)- God commands genocide: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants (the KJV says 'sucklings'), cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' Saul kills everyone and everything, except King Agag and the best livestock - to use as burnt sacrifices to God.
.
2 Kings 2:23 - - "From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
.
Isaiah 13:4 - The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war...
5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens-
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath-
to destroy the whole country.
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty...
15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished...
18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.
.
:(

-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - Suffer the children

In response to Suffer the children posted by Migisi:

Thanks for the list!

What is Brian's definition of "confronting"? I was looking forward to his reply. I hope we didn't scare him away.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» Brian Tubbs - Suffer the children

In response to Suffer the children posted by Migisi:

You've cited the standard OT references that depict God as the violator of the Geneva Convention. Do you have any NT references that are consistent with your position? Put another way: Do you see a DISTINCTION between the NT and OT? If so, what do you think is the Bible's explanation of that distinction?

» Brian Tubbs - For crying out loud...

In response to Suffer the children posted by HeadZenCards:

Oliver, for crying out loud, Migisi posted her references at 4:59pm and you're already accusing me of running and hiding at 6:16pm because I hadn't responded yet. I do have a job and a family. I don't exactly sit all day at the computer. This isn't a full-time gig, you know. Good grief!

» Brian Tubbs - General comment

Migisi, I would be dishonest if I didn't find many of these passages troubling. You and Pink will be impressed that I'm currently reading (along with Richard Dawkins and George Barna) John Shelby Spong's Sins of the Scriptures. I am sensitive to these incidents and prophecies that you cite, and have been troubled by them for many years.

With that said, I'd like to know - and I address this question to you, Migisi (I have zero expectation of any fairness from Oliver) - how you'd like me to address these. If your mind is closed to any explanation or defense, then there's little point in proceeding. I say that really to ANYONE reading this.

If, however, you'd like to truly see if there could be ANY justification or at least suitable explanation for these horrifyingly tragic passages, then I will proceed.

First question....by what objective moral standard do we determine that the killing of children and infants is wrong? Obviously, I support laws against the killing of infants and children (including the unborn), so I'm not calling the morality itself into question. But I would like an answer to my inquiry.

Upon what objective, compelling, authoritative basis do we as a society agree that murder is wrong - particularly the killing of innocent children?

» redback - wobbly wombats

A PC version suggests the Catholic understanding of all these verses is "the kids deserve it", the Protestants "if it's to happen, let it happen to someone else's kids." Islam: "It's the will of Allah." Surprisingly, the atheist and agnostic simply question it. The Taoist: (bleep) happens.

How can flawed mankind ever hope to develop a consistent understanding that "Thou shalt not kill" allows for such manifest exceptions. That when prayer is offered to ease suffering in the world, there is such a painfully high, divinely inspired benchmark. Even the Aussie Archbishop struggles for an answer above senseless IMO.

The NT is God's realisation He made a mistake with the OT has to be amongst the options advanced to explain.

There must have been some incredibly thick-headed people in ancient times that whatever profound message was needed, had to be delivered by a piece of metaphoric 4x2 hardwood across their skulls. We're in good company. I think we're equally thick headed. And these kids when they die, they don't go straight to heaven unless the Pope has also removed that bar.

Nope...I really need to get my sense of spirituality from the Bible and other sources DESPITE these messages.

-- posted by redback

» pink101 - General Comment

In response to General comment posted by BrianTubbs:
.
Upon what objective, compelling, authoritative basis do we as a society agree that murder is wrong - particularly the killing of innocent children?
.
While it seems as though that is such an easy question to answer, I think we should define the terms.
.
A child is a person. An infant is defined as a very young child from birth to age 1 who has not, as yet, learned to walk.
.
One of my automobiles was vandalized while it was parked in the lot of an automobile repair shop. The estimate for repairs was questioned by the insurance company on the basis of the age of the car. A legal precedent has been set that shows age has to do with value.
.
The Pro-Life argument has it that abortion is murder; so, Brian wants to use his "objective morality" to discuss what it means to kill an infant or a child.
.
That's an obfuscation of the issue.
.
The reason the ancients killed every man, woman, child, and infant when they defeated certain enemies was genocide--they wanted to kill off an entire strain of being. We have--YET--to truly take such an issue under consideration. There is a lot of Blood Hatred that comes out of some religious fervor. Ancient Judaism seems to be the main survivor of such evil thinking. Attempts to defend it on the basis of biblicism seem doomed to back fire on the defenders.
.

-- posted by pink101

» Brother_Jones - General Comment

In response to General Comment posted by pink101:

Ancient Judaism seems to be the main survivor of such evil thinking.

It must be somewhat remarkable to you that you once thought of yourself as a Christian and a believer in the God of the bible. Since God and His Son, Jesus, come to you everyday in the form of a demon. It is why Jesus taught that you cannot serve two Masters. You will come to hate one of them. And it is certainly clear these last few days here at the Suite that Jesus is a target because He is taught and proclaimed by Christians as God in the flesh.

i am just an oldtimer for the Lord.

-- posted by Brother_Jones