Protestantism

» pink101 - Atrocities Then and Now

In response to Atrocities Then and Now posted by BrianTubbs:
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???
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You can read my comments elsewhere.
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You don't see me ranting and raving about all this B.S. In fact, I'm opposed to it as it serves no apparent purpose.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Atrocities Then and Now

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When I read about adults murdering or torturing babies and children today, I renew my commitment to capital punishment. They should face the wrath of the state and then they will face the wrath of God for that.
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The Bible God demands capital punishment:
Genesis 9:5-6: - "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; and at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth a man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
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He also required the death penalty for other things besides murder:
-- Hitting your parents Ex. 21:15
-- Kidnapping Ex 21:16
-- Cursing your father or mother Ex 21:17
-- Causing miscarriage of an infant Ex 21:22-25
-- An animal that habitually injures others, but the owner doesn't destroy it Exodus 21:28-29
-- Witchcraft Ex. 22:18
-- Worship of other gods/goddesses Ex. 22:20
-- Working on the Sabbath Ex. 35:2
-- Adultery Lev. 20:10
-- Incest Lev. 20:11-12 & 14
-- Sodomy Lev. 20:13
-- Bestiality Lev. 20:15-16
-- False prophesying Deut. 13:1-10
-- Rape under some circumstances Deut. 22:25
The executioner would be a mighty busy guy if we still followed Bible law. Thank secularism we don't.
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First, it's an inflammatory, outrageous, and dishonest cheapshot -and you all know it. Mainstream, evangelical Christians don't go around killing children. It's frankly infuriating that I should even have to make this point!
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If anyone is jumping up and down, it's you Brian. Settle down. Who here has accused YOU of anything that you should be so defensive? What's been introduced throughout this thread is biblical evidence that atrocities were committed allegedly under the direction of God, and/or in God's name. I'm sorry if you can't accept that, but it's there in black and white. And, the recent news stories ARE linked to Christianity and Judaism, no matter how much you try to deny it. Face it...Christians have, and still do bad things to other people. Read the horrifying story of Andrea Yates, and you'll see the link to Christianity. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/spec...
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You're right... most PEOPLE (regardless of religious affiliation, or no belief) are committed to helping children, not hurting them. That's why these news stories are so repugnant. The idea that people ~still~ use religion to justify doing horrible things to others is so repulsive.
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If we were discussing Islam here, and came upon verses in the Qur'an instructing followers to harm children, commit wholesale genocide and acts of terror, hack pregnant women open with swords, eat children, dash their heads against rocks, etc., you'd have no problem condemning Islam, would you. But since we're discussing the historical barbarianism related to YOUR faith, you have a problem with it. You say we're taking 'inflammatory, outrageous, dishonest cheapshots'.
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Second, it is LOGICALLY fallacious and dishonest to selectively utilize the Old Testament to judge God. If you're going to cite passages in the Old Testament to indict God for atrocities, then you must take the WHOLE of the OT (unless you were THERE to verify that this part is true and that part is false).
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Christians consistently select and discount uncomfortable or conflicting verses and chapters (like those presented in this thread) and classify/excuse them as allegory, symbolism, parable, prose and poetry, etc. - thus denying what is clearly written. But other more altruistic and enlightened verses and chapters are championed as God's 'word' and truth. Who's dishonest? Yes, Christians need to take the WHOLE of the OT and really examine it! None of us were THERE to verify any of it, and can't know what's really true or false. But if Christians ~believe~ the Book is inspired or authored by God and it reveals truth, then the ugliness found within it - which I and others have quoted ~~verbatum~~ from the Book - is the truth too.
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So, if those atrocities took place (as the OT records), then you must also confront what the OT says about the nature of God. He was all-knowing -- meaning He knew EVERYTHING about everyone involved. You must also accept that He was/is all-present. And you must also accept that the Israelites KNEW the reality of God and had seen His power demonstrated time and again.
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If the Bible God was all-knowing and all-present, he would've known the whole future of the universe beforehand right from the beginning. He did nothing to stop the progression of evil on earth from day seven. In fact, according to the story, it was God who created the angels, knowing full well that they would rebel, torment and tempt his human creation, and destroy his world. It was God who gave Man freewill to rebel with those angels, and then God got angry with his creation?? Why? He knew it would happen! The rest is Biblical history and ALL of it is God's doing - because God controls everything, right? Either God had no power to stop the chain of events he inspired, or he didn't care to stop them, or he enjoyed the conflict and misery that resulted. You tell me what the God's 'nature' is, Brian. That is, if you can figure him out by what's written about him.
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... If you take the OT in its full context, then you must acknowledge that the children of Israel really DID hear from God and they knew that this all-powerful, all-knowing God (whom they had SEEN work wonders and make His presence known) was commanding them to take the land of Canaan by force.
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Yes, ~God~ told the Israelites to take Canaan by force - destroy entire culturess, kill everything that breathed... innocent women and children, livestock, suckling infants, old men. And dismember, enslave, rape, etc. Is this your defense of God and rationalization for the atrocities the Israelites committed?
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Don't pick and choose what parts of the OT to accept as valid. BECAUSE....
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BECAUSE why? Bible defenders do it all the time.
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If you believe the Bible is "fiction" (as Oliver said), then what are we debating? If you say the Bible is fiction, but then cite these "genocide" campaigns, then all we're doing is debating literature like Homer's "Illiad." Sorry. I'm not interested in doing that.
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Because you're not interested doesn't mean that others are not interested, Brian.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - OT Law

In response to Atrocities Then and Now posted by Migisi:

The executioner would be a mighty busy guy if we still followed Bible law. Thank secularism we don't.

The Mosaic Code applied to the Jewish people at that time, and was not intended to cover the Gentile nations. So we don't need to thank "Secularism" for anything here.

» Brian Tubbs - Capital Punishment

In response to Atrocities Then and Now posted by Migisi:

The Bible God demands capital punishment

And this is to God's credit, in my opinion. While some of the offenses seem (to us) to not be worthy of the death penalty, we should remember that there were provisions (it talks about this Numbers - chapter 21, I think, but I'm not sure) to reduce or lessen penalties for non-murder offenses.

But, again, according to the Bible, this was God's people. The standards were higher for the OT Jews than for other cultures.

» Brian Tubbs - The Real Issue

In response to Atrocities Then and Now posted by Migisi:

Migisi, you bring everything down to the REAL issue with this post...

If the Bible God was all-knowing and all-present, he would've known the whole future of the universe beforehand right from the beginning. He did nothing to stop the progression of evil on earth from day seven. In fact, according to the story, it was God who created the angels, knowing full well that they would rebel, torment and tempt his human creation, and destroy his world. It was God who gave Man freewill to rebel with those angels, and then God got angry with his creation?? Why? He knew it would happen! The rest is Biblical history and ALL of it is God's doing - because God controls everything, right? Either God had no power to stop the chain of events he inspired, or he didn't care to stop them, or he enjoyed the conflict and misery that resulted. You tell me what the God's 'nature' is, Brian. That is, if you can figure him out by what's written about him.

I'm not going to dodge this, but will have to tackle it in different articles, blog posts, and in other threads. It's too vast a subject to do justice to here. But this really IS the issue. If we could understand God's knowledge (including and especially His foreknowledge), then we would have all our questions answered.

» pink101 - What's Going On Here

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What's going on here?
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The truth be known?
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Jesus was against the hateful ways of the Old Testament in a way that was almost impossible for him to articulate.
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In fact, I think Jesus was against Judaism in general which is opposed to equality of the races; although, some aspects of Judaism do give equality lip service.
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He was far ahead of his time in one sense; but, late in another--actually stuck in the middle of it all.
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Jesus came on behalf of ordinary people who were being suppressed by the ruling classes--first the Temple Rulers and then the Roman Occupiers who were in cahoots with each other. I think his comments to the woman at the well point to what I'm saying here about how difficult is was for Jesus to articulate his differences with Judaism. Today, we would call what Judaism was to the people of Jesus' time, a state religion--it ruled the people hands down and flat out--period.
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It is the aspect of the Gospel that is almost totally ignored by the churchification of Christianity.
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I'm sure church management doesn't like to hear comments like these I make in this post.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - The Real Issue

In response to The Real Issue posted by BrianTubbs:
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If we could understand God's knowledge (including and especially His foreknowledge), then we would have all our questions answered.
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Translate: "God works in mysterious ways" - the canned Christian response to all unanswerable questions. Great.

-- posted by Migisi

» HeadZenCards - The Real Issue

In response to The Real Issue posted by Migisi:

Stuff happens. In mysterious ways. That bit of wisdom only costs 10% of your income. You don't HAVE to pay, but rules are rules...

The real issue is children. If a human being harms a child, we will not give them any authority from that point on. We are justified in cutting off that person from polite society.

1 Sam. 15 describes a force that called on its followers to utterly destroy infants and sucklings. Let the red flags wave, let the whooping warning cries be heard against ALL who support that force.

Not everyone who believes in God believes in a homicidal monster. They regard their Bibles as lucky charms, and hope that the result of hanging on to them will make their final meal magically delicious. They've certainly never read them.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» pink101 - The Real Issue

In response to The Real Issue posted by HeadZenCards:

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Try to imagine a culture in which the people believe they are carrying out a script written by some author and in which each individual has a role to play and carry out.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - Give me a break

In response to The Real Issue posted by Migisi:

Are there not MYSTERIES with atheism or agnosticism?