Protestantism

» Migisi - Law Enforcement

In response to Law Enforcement posted by BrianTubbs:

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ANY professing follower of God that the violence of the OT justifies similar violence today.
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Yesterday, today, tomorrow... the OT violence can't be justified in any time period.
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Your last comment really struck me as an unfair cheap shot. You probably didnt' mean it that way, but...
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Don't take it personally.
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I would never do anything to harm a child - or, for that matter, anyone.
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Of course you wouldn't. So how come your God would?

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi)

In response to Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi) posted by paper_turtle:
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My perception is that if you cut the Bible up and put all the ogre God stuff in one pile, and all the stuff which portrays God as loving (and merciful and just) in another, the ogre God stack would be pretty small.
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Now THAT would be an interesting idea. The personna who has the highest pile wins.
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You were asking how I could tell something was "authentic" and not man-made. God is within each person. What is love within us, comes from us--but we have to be taught what love is, and how to love. Our parents begin this process, and interactions with others throughout our lives add to the lessons, but God also teaches us about love. No one can fully love another until he/she loves him/herself. The God I know loves us unconditionally, and teaches healthy self-love.
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Are you saying that, without God, one can not love, know love, or teach love?
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I believe *one* of their intents was to elicit disgust in the reader SO THAT the reader would vow never, ever to do something so horrible.
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I don't buy that at all. The OT God's champions recieved much praise and adoration from the writers for their obedience to God's atrocious commands, and they wrote how they were allegedly blessed by God.

-- posted by Migisi

» paper_turtle - Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi)

In response to Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi) posted by Migisi:

I wrote:
My perception is that if you cut the Bible up and put all the ogre God stuff in one pile, and all the stuff which portrays God as loving (and merciful and just) in another, the ogre God stack would be pretty small.
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Migisi responded:
Now THAT would be an interesting idea. The personna who has the highest pile wins.
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Please, Migisi. You were once in law enforcement. You know that in trying to decide whether or not someone can be indicted for a crime you have to weigh the evidence. If a preponderence of the evidence points to guilt, you indict. You are referring to the Bible as evidence to indict God as the ogre. I'm saying I don't think you have enough evidence to indict.
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Are you saying that, without God, one can not love, know love, or teach love?
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I'm mostly speaking of my own experience here, and those who have shared experiences with me. I don't believe God is the only path to love, or that those who don't believe in God don't know how to love. I would never say something like that, and I'm kind of surprised you'd think I would.
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I don't buy that at all.
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Well, I can't convince you, and I don't have to. Seems to me you are not particularly interested in entertaining an alternative POV. I don't say in judgment or spite. It just seems obvious.
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We *all* determine what is Truth for ourselves, and that's the way it should be.
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» paper_turtle - The More Comfortable Possibility

In response to The More Comfortable Possibility posted by BrianTubbs:

the OT Scriptures contain historical accounts recorded by the Israelites and/or their descendants - in which they (the writers) attribute the Israelite campaigns of genocide to God's direct commands (when, in fact, no such commands by God were given).
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That's more or less what I meant--and history bears out that humankind throughout the ages and down to today have done terrible things in the name of their God (or Allah or Whomever). This in no way means God either inspired or approves of the actions.
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The people who did those things know, in some part of their being, they were wrong, so that have to invent some justification--and the more horrendous the act, the more inflated the justification.
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Whether or not you buy this as theologically sound, it is very sound from a psychological POV (and history backs me up).
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peace and love,
Paper Turtle

-- posted by paper_turtle

» redback - Uncomfortable Possibility

In response to Uncomfortable Possibility posted by Migisi:

Thanks, Migisi. Your post hits the nail on the head for some of my questions. Can the atheist prove what the Christian can't? Great philosophical stuff over a large-ish bottle of port. For me, the discussions here have never been whether or not God was real. BUT how do we make better sense of the Bible's account and fit it into our lives. I selectively draw from the posts I read, a reasonably sensible tactic for a raft of reasons.

Is there really no contradiction between OT and NT over the issues raised, REALLY. A rhetorical question.

And if as a result of ponders here, the OT becomes "flawed" OR of lesser relevance today re the killing of kids (as one example) by what 'consistency' measure can we be assured that problem has been contained to only one Book or one issue?

Brian's umcomfortable articulating the optimum answer and I have absolutely no problem with that. I'm uncomfortable with trying to get the right question that will attract an answer AND won't offend.

The Pope recently creates another 'saint' that its OK for people to pray to for relief of physical ailments. Surely, there's Biblical precedent for that? You know, even if linked to a Constitution of some kind. Assuming Catholics are recognised Christians, they apparently make up 1.1 billion worlwide. So, how many does it take to make a preferred belief.

God will do what God will do. Nothing I say or pray or prey, will change that in my lifetime standing on dirt or a timber floor etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. And these discussions don't cause me to think God worries or loses sleep over me. And that's OK. I'm incredibly unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I'm not even sure now if the 'universe' is actually a 'multiverse' and the Planet Dag really does exist. And that's OK. Have no expectations and suffer no disappointments rules some lives so why am I so special.

Last para about context not maudlin suicidal thoughts.

Paper Turtle states in response to Migisi: "You are referring to the Bible as evidence to indict God as the ogre."

I can't pretend I understand what's fair dinkum intended here by Migisi or anyone. But for me, I'm thinking in my undeveloped faith-mind the apparent ogre-like references to God in the Bible contain a massive non sequitur somewhere. For me, God and Bible are 2 entirely separate entities and I read Migisi's 'Bible God' in that context. If those who wrote the Bible truly believed the missives to kill kids wasn't a direction from God, at best it's ambiguous. And the whole issue is not just about kids. But boy..."suffer the children.." has to have some context.

-- posted by redback

» redback - Uncomfortable Possibility

In response to Uncomfortable Possibility posted by redback:

DARN...it became a reply before I had a chance to reduce it by half. But you could read it anyway...right?

-- posted by redback

» HeadZenCards - Tough To Give It Up

In response to Tough To Give It Up posted by pink101:

Pinky, you ask the greatest questions.

Now that we clearly know where people who post here stand, I will answer the only question sane people can ask after washing their hands of a so-called "God" who, at one time, advised his followers to utterly destroy infants and sucklings, and, from that moment on, was NOT to be consulted or listened to ABOUT ANYTHING.

Your question was "When you've believed something since early childhood, it's tough to give it up. A little bit at a time?
But, God might punish me for giving up on my childhood beliefs.
What to do, what to do."

How to give up on your childhood beliefs in a violent LORD GOD and Jesus (who will not send believers in his resurrection to heaven unless they do the will of one who has inspired infanticide) is like making love.

You can do it by yourself, with one other special person, or in a group like we have here.

You can do it fast and miss the joy in what you've done, and come back for more without appreciating what's happened.

OR you can SAVOR the process, drag it out for what seems to be YEARS, AGONIZE over technique and finally explode in the joy of completion, the joy of letting go of both God and Jesus.

That's why I love to post at Suite 101. I guess I'm as much a watcher as I am a doer.

-- posted by HeadZenCards

» pink101 - O T Violence vs N T Violence

In response to Tough To Give It Up posted by HeadZenCards:
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Christopher Hitchens points out that if we add all the violence of the Old Testament that God speaks on humanity, that it pales in comparison to the violence Jesus taught that a person should spend eternity in the everlasting agony of Hell. What kind of an impact does that have on a child in their formative years?
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Did you ever know a child to have nightmarish dreams? What unspeakable evil lurks in darkness? Go to Sunday School and find out.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi)

In response to Who's yer Daddy...(Migisi) posted by paper_turtle:
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... You were once in law enforcement. ... You are referring to the Bible as evidence to indict God as the ogre. I'm saying I don't think you have enough evidence to indict.
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How many bones must be broken before a parent can be indicted for child endangerment? How many people need to be killed before someone can be indicted for murder? ONE is 'enough'. There's more than 'enough' evidence - and eyewitness testimony from his own followers - presented as 'fact' in the Bible to indict the God of the Bible.
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You wrote: "I believe *one* of their intents was to elicit disgust in the reader SO THAT the reader would vow never, ever to do something so horrible."
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I wrote: "I don't buy that at all" and gave my reasons.
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You replied "Well, I can't convince you, and I don't have to. Seems to me you are not particularly interested in entertaining an alternative POV.
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I've been 'entertaining' alternative POVs for years here on Suite. Nothing's changed. I just don't agree with you. IMO, you won't even try to 'convince me' because you know your idea is a stretch. But you're right, you 'don't have to' try.

-- posted by Migisi

» Migisi - The More Comfortable Possibility

In response to The More Comfortable Possibility posted by paper_turtle:
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Are you saying that when the Bible writers wrote that God spoke to people, and they wrote "the LORD GOD said (or commanded)", it was all a fabrication? They lied? If so, can you trust anything written in scripture to be true?

-- posted by Migisi