Protestantism

» pink101 - History

In response to History posted by BrianTubbs:

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That felt like being hit me in the gut when I wasn't looking.
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:~)
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Okay.
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But, you are saying that a person who is learning cannot learn anything with which you disagree now, isn't it?
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - War and Sin

In response to War and Sin posted by BrianTubbs:
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I'd attribute just about all war to that. ["unchecked greed and the lust for gain"]
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Since you do, why would the Iraq war be the exception? Bush and other hawks portray the invasion of Iraq as some kind of rescue mission to save the Iraqi people from a 'ruthless, greedy, power-hungry government'. That's bunk. What makes you think OUR leaders, the corporate vultures, and the new Iraqi government Bush put in power - aren't just as ruthless, greedy, and power-hungry?
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But it's too superficial to lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the United States.
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I agree. Tony Blair shares the blame.
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Anti-war leftists, however, thrive on superficiality when it comes to bashing America.
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Spoken like a true neocon.
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..The United States tried to check that greed and aggression through diplomacy and trade during the Cold War, but later resorted to force - first in 1991 with Desert Storm and then in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq and the takedown of Saddam's government.
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History as written in the government-sanctioned history text books. I'm not one of your high school history students, Brian. I'd be one whom your students would interview for a 'living' account of the Cold War era and subsequent world events. You were born around 1973, and would've been around 18 during Desert Storm, right? Don't presume to instruct those of us who've LIVED history.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - The Great American Debate

In response to War and Sin posted by Migisi:
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Don't presume to instruct those of us who've LIVED history.
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You bring up an important issue regarding "living history" if that is what it might be called.
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I believe something of great importance is taking place in our society as we interact here.
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Amazingly strong political forces are revisiting the great questions of colonial America and the early independent America. Those questions were decided long ago; but, now some politicians--conservative by identity--are reopening the debates as though they are yet to be decided.
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In other words, conservative politicians are attempting to revise our history to suit their interests which were--basically--the interests held by the Crown of England in the eighteenth century. Tories--everyone of them. If they have their way you can kiss your freedom goodbye.
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-- posted by pink101

» Brian Tubbs - History

In response to War and Sin posted by Migisi:

-History as written in the government-sanctioned history text books.

This is more left-wing crap, Migisi! My knowledge of history isn't based on materials approved by the US government. It's based on a pretty broad review of materials that range from Howard Zinn to Doris Kearns Goodwin to David McCullough to Joseph Ellis to Barbara Tuchman and on and on and on! And more than that, based on primary source documents from the eras I've particularly zeroed in on. Just because my understanding of history is different from yours doesn't mean my information was spoon fed by the government. Get off your high horse!

I'm not one of your high school history students, Brian. I'd be one whom your students would interview for a 'living' account of the Cold War era and subsequent world events.

And I'm not talking DOWN to you as if you were. In fact, I didn't even talk DOWN to my students. I don't usually brag, except when I'm defensive, but I was a pretty popular teacher at the school I taught at - and the main reason was because I treated the teenagers with mutual respect.

You were born around 1973, and would've been around 18 during Desert Storm, right?

I was born in 1969. I joined the Virginia Army National Guard in August 1990 and happened to be on active duty with the Regular US Army for Basic and Advanced Infantry Training at Ft. Benning, Georgia during Operation Desert Storm.

Don't presume to instruct those of us who've LIVED history.

There's a lot of arrogance in this statement of yours. If you're taking the position that older people automatically know more than younger people - and thus that younger people can't "presume" to teach older folks anything - then I say that's ludicrous. But if that's your stubborn position, then continuing this with you is hopeless.

Before you get the wrong idea, I pay great respect to those older than me. Most of my congregation is, in fact, older than me. And I've always treated those older with respect. And I appreciate that they have life experience which I can learn from.

But this doesn't mean that younger people can't be more knowledgeable than older people on history. It IS possible. Happens all the time.

My maternal grandfather served in World War II. He was a decorated war hero. Doesn't brag about or talk a lot about what he did over there, but he's definitely honored to have worn the US uniform. But I digress. The point is that I know more about World War II from a Big Picture political-military perspective than he does - and he knows it and wouldn't challenge it.

Now, I can't compete with the "living," personal perspective he has on the war - and that is immensely valuable for understanding history. But it's NOT the ONLY perspective worthy of our attention.

I brought in a Vietnam veteran to speak on the Vietnam war for US history class a couple years ago. I taught the first 30 minutes of the 90-minute class, reviewing with the students the bird's eye socio-political picture of the conflict. Then, he got up and talked about his experiences.

Several times during his talk, he complimented me (and did so sincerely and even self-consciously) for giving a really good lesson on the war - bringing in things he wouldn't be able to. He was saluting my knowledge of the period - this from someone who lived through it and participated in it! Unlike you, Migisi, he was humble enough to admit that - just because he lived in it - he didn't necessarily have more info overall on the conflict than someone like me who had studied it but didn't live in it.

Bottom line...I am not saying I'm the smartest person here in these discussions. I do NOT believe that for one moment, in fact. But I know American history - better than most people. I've studied it in great detail. There are some periods of it that I don't know as well as others, but there are some (like the founding era) where it wouldn't be a stretch to say I'm an expert.

So, don't try to put me in my place. When I am in unfamiliar territory, I will admit it. And I will continue to show respect for your life experience as well as Pink's and PaperTurtle's and on and on. But do NOT talk down to me like I'm some arrogant little prick who reads government-approved textbooks and then calls himself an expert. That ain't me, and I don't appreciate you coming at me like that is me.

» Migisi - History

In response to History posted by BrianTubbs:
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like I'm some arrogant little prick
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Wow! I wouldn't have said that, but since you did...
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You sure come off like one a good deal of the time. IMO.

-- posted by Migisi

» pink101 - History

In response to History posted by BrianTubbs:
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Migisi!
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:~)
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I guess one of the problems I have with your style, Brian, is not the knowledge that you have which is respectable. But, it is the way you treat others who have spent their time and energies learning and preparing their knowledge in such a way so as to be able to pass it on us. I venture that Howard Zinn has done much more to spark an interest in American history than many other writers who may be more in line with your perspectives. We do have perspectives and they may differ.
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For example, in the thread I opened, Okay, you came in with your references as though if anyone wanted to know anything about the history regarding the Bill of Rights they could check out your references. And, in a way, that was you pushing and shoving and letting any readers know that whatever I might share from the book I'm reading would be next to worthless.
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How about you make some comments and give any references you think are necessary to show they are correct? Participants don't come here looking for bibliographies.
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-- posted by pink101

» Migisi - History

In response to History posted by pink101:
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Migisi!
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Shame on me (tee hee and wink). Folks here have NO idea how much restraint I exercise. Heh heh.
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whatever I might share from the book I'm reading would be next to worthless.
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Well, I'M interested, and do appreciate it when you share highlights from your readings. You and I are intelligent enough to determine - on our own - what's worthless or valuable to us.

-- posted by Migisi

» Brian Tubbs - History

In response to History posted by pink101:

If you look at my references, you'll see that they were broad - they respected a wide range of perspectives.

I've got nothing against the Bill of Rights book you selected. I'm just not familiar with it.

But, I don't think it was wrong for me to offer up a good plan for a ground-up study of the founding era. THat was the spirit of the discussion, was it not?

» Brian Tubbs - Restraint

In response to History posted by Migisi:

Folks here have NO idea how much restraint I exercise. Heh heh.

That's a scary thought. Look, I like you, Migisi. Don't know if the feeling is mutual, but there it is. Still...you have taken some real low-blow shots at me, including in this discussion.

» pink101 - History

In response to History posted by BrianTubbs:

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THat was the spirit of the discussion, was it not?
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Sure, get into the discussion. None of us is so knowledgeable that we cannot learn something.
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-- posted by pink101